Re: [asa] Appeasing TE?

From: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue Dec 23 2008 - 21:25:03 EST

> I think the proponents of a theory are owed a chance to explain their
> theory. My crime perhaps was saying they haven't been clear enough.

Why must you act like a victim here? I think most people on the list deal with TE skeptics quite perfunctorily and routinely and I don't think you have been dealt with any differently than most others.

You said yourself you are not intellectually satisfied so my suggestion is maybe you should consider TE. I think in truth the problem lies not in the absence of any "manifesto" of TE but in your personal inability to get past a scientifically detectable creation record. TE will never satisfy you and I don't think you will ever be satisfied if you insist on this.

Most others on the list are comfortable with their own understanding of TE and are mostly in agreement with each other on it in general terms even in the absence of a manifesto. Granted there is some abiguity in it but that ambiguity actually defines TE. And that is why it won't make any sense to you if you expect hard and fast proof of it or for it to meet some particular criteria that you think it should.

Thanks

John

--- On Wed, 12/24/08, David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Appeasing TE?
> To: "Dick Fischer" <dickfischer@verizon.net>
> Cc: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 12:29 PM
> On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:15 PM, Dick Fischer
> <dickfischer@verizon.net>
> Dick wrote:
>
> > What I think we would be safe in saying is that TEs
> believe in
> > biological evolution through natural, not supernatural
> means.
>
>
> Dick, I appreciate your statement here. But according to
> Stephen, if I
> understand his position, this is a misnomer. It isnt
> "theistic" any more
> than there is "theistic chemistry", for example.
>
> Therefore I'm confused. Is TE as a set of ideas not
> supposed to exist? Is
> there no such thing as TE?
>
> One thing I want to make very very clear. I never claimed
> there to be any
> such thing as TE. If there is any such thing I merely
> expressed a wish
> for a definition and a list of the tenets so I could
> understand the
> difference between the view and other views. That would be
> rather difficult
> if there isn't supposed to be any such thing.
> Wouldn't it?
>
> I feel I didn't make any of it up. I am only
> responding to what was already
> there.
> I suspect the real answer is "go search the ASA
> website". Or, as folks have
> so graciously recommended some books, "read a book on
> the subject". I can
> accept being chided for not looking on the website first.
>
> So looking at the ASA website:
> http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Evolution/murphy__van_dyke_dialogue.html#TheisticEvolution
>
> Let me apologize ahead of time, but I am afraid I do
> personally assume the
> people involved with the page are quite sane.
>
> Then there is Gregory's recommended book is
> referenced on the ASA web site
> page
> http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Evolution/index.html
>
> *Evolving Creation (Theistic Evolution): God's
> activity is typically
> progressive in time, and
> potentially understandable in terms of cause-and-effect
> sequences of
> physical or historical events.
> K. Miller
> <http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1993/PSCF9-93Miller.html>*
>
> Again I assume Keith and all the ASA folks are sane. But
> if not, well, at
> least I am not one claiming them not to be sane. Their
> sanity would be an
> issue I could not possibly judge.
>
> I haven't looked at any of the refernced materials yet.
> But apparently the
> proponents of TE think it is some sort of a real idea, real
> enough to
> deserve a label, and the idea can be distinguished from
> non-theistic
> evolution. Inquiring minds would want to know, of course,
> how does one
> differentiate the two? (TE vs NTE?).
>
> Denying that there is any difference between TE and NTE
> would be quite a
> claim! I made no such claim. Affirming a difference
> would also be quite a
> claim. Again, I made no such claim. But it seems to me the
> proponents of TE
> do have to deal with whether TE==NTE or whether TE!=NTE.
> As Dick points
> out, perhaps there is disagreement on that subject. If the
> proponents of TE
> cannot agree on this then what do they expect the rest of
> humanity to think?
>
>
> I have never asserted that anything in the natural world is
> "based" on
> miracles. Do TE's make such an assertion? That's
> a good question. I
> don't know the answer. What if there are different
> types of TE views on
> this? A broad range, as George mentioned. I myself have
> asserted nothing
> whatsoever about miracles or of what they may consist or
> whether they
> affect natural processes. Others talk about that. I
> alluded to others
> talking about that.
>
> Another related aspect: What saves Christianity, and How?
>
> Maybe I've misunderstood something.
>
> John Walley asserted , if I understand him correctly,
> Christianity is saved
> by...by...what? An intellectual position of some sort? I
> assumed he meant
> something related to this TE question. I apologize if that
> assumption is way
> off.
>
> I also assume he didnt mean Christianity is saved just for
> himself, but
> rather saved for everyone. If thats the case, doesn't
> that elevate the
> subject to a much higher level than our personal views?
> Isn't that why the
> question must be asked? It has nothing to do with my
> personal curiosity.
> Because the subject has to be explained to all of humanity.
>
> The Bottom Line
> ==========
> I think the proponents of a theory are owed a chance to
> explain their
> theory.
> My crime perhaps was saying they haven't been clear
> enough. I thought I
> was presenting an opportunity to them. Sigh.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dick wrote:
>
> > That
> > doesn't mean we can't believe in a
> supernatural beginning at the
> > inception of the Big Bang or a divine kick start to
> the appearance of
> > life. And we are theists, which recognizes the
> Creator and an
> > involvement in the Creation.
>
>
>
>
> > Beyond that we can agree or disagree as to
> > how deeply involved the Creator might be.
> >
> > Dick Fischer, GPA president
> > Genesis Proclaimed Association
> > "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and
> History"
> > www.genesisproclaimed.org
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Stephen Matheson
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 2:03 PM
> > To: David Clounch; john_walley@yahoo.com
> > Cc: asa@calvin.edu; Nucacids
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Appeasing TE?
> >
> >
> > John Walley:
> > I'm curious though, how exactly did Stephen imply
> that you are promoting
> > TE? I must have missed that email. I wonder if that is
> possibly your
> > peculiar perception and if Stephen would agree with
> that? That strikes
> > me as being out of character for both him and you. But
> there I go being
> > a #9. :)
> >
> > David Clounch:
> > Well, he said the onus is on me to explain my theory
> of TE. But I dont
> > really have any theory. I only have an impression. I
> wanted to say
> > that the reason I ask questions is because I am
> missing a definition
> > and any list of tenets of TE. So for me to make any
> statement there is
> > no context. I'd have to provide the definition
> myself so folks could
> > know what I was talking about. I said I have an
> "impression" of what
> > TE means. But does it correspond to what true
> promoters of TE would
> > say? I have no idea. It would be better to go to just
> a reference
> > source.
> >
> >
> > David, you misunderstood completely. The onus that
> you bear is not to
> > "explain" your "theory of TE."
> What you need to do is explain why "TE"
> > is in need of "explanation" at all. Like
> most critics of evolutionary
> > creation, you believe there is something unique about
> evolutionary
> > theory, as though its mode of explanation or its
> overall epistemlogical
> > nature is wholly unique. In fact, the real reason
> that you and others
> > take this position is that you seek to reserve
> phylogenetic development
> > as an arena for miraculous intervention. (Oddly, no
> one wants to
> > reserve human embryonic development as such an arena,
> despite explicit
> > biblical assertions that God is directly involved in
> the process.) So,
> > read what I wrote again; it's reposted below.
> >
> > Before we get to that, let me make you this offer.
> You seek "tenets" of
> > "TE." Maybe you could get the ball rolling
> by posting a list of tenets
> > of a position that we both share. That position is
> Theistic Embryology,
> > also designated "TE." Once I see how
> you've articulated the tenets of
> > this position, I can tackle the tenets of my Theistic
> Evolution
> > position.
> >
> > Reposted from another thread:
> > The problem, I think, is that you see evolutionary
> explanation as
> > somehow categorically different from other kinds of
> scientific
> > explanation. And so you ask all sorts of bizarre
> questions about "TE"
> > because you are sure that "TE" is something
> that needs to be specially
> > examined and justified. In fact, the onus is on you,
> not me, to explain
> > why there is even such a term as "theistic
> evolution" when no sane
> > Christian would propose the same nomenclature for
> microbiology,
> > gravitation, meteorology, chemistry or any other area
> of scientific
> > inquiry. It is you, not me, who needs to defend your
> peculiar notions of
> > "intervention" in one particular area of
> scientific study and not in
> > hundreds of others. Unless you are prepared to confess
> that pharmacology
> > and particle physics, embryology and endocrinology,
> geophysics and
> > grassland ecology are all "based on
> miracles," your interrogation of
> > "TE" will be intellectually indefensible.
> >
> > Steve Matheson
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
> with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of
> the message.
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
> with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of
> the message.
> >

      

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Received on Tue Dec 23 21:25:16 2008

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