Seems to me that there is a problem here. We usually think of a miracle
as a sign of divine confirmation, for example. The raising of the dead or
the feeding of thousands from one lunch are such. Such events smack the
observers between the eyes. Very seldom are such events to be kept quiet.
In contrast, you are thinking of miracles as events which do not fit into
recognized scientific categories. But the scientific categories are
simply our description of God's activity, for the most part, regular. But
there are scientific discussions of singularities, which I understand to
be instances where scientific explanation runs out. But I would like a
physicist to fill this out or correct it.
There is an additional matter which must be considered, the fact that
there is no restriction on the Almighty. There are no end of possible
mutations and other genetic changes in any member of a species. We cannot
tell whether a deletion or modification of one or more nucleosomes was
directed especially by the deity or happened naturally--indeed, that very
phrasing is at least oxymoronic. When we try to examine the works of God,
we are probably trying to subdivide that which is an indissoluble unit.
On Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:46:32 +1800 "David Clounch"
I'm trying to get an answer as to whether TE is based on miracles or
whether it is not based on miracles. At first I thought the answer is
that no it is not based on miracles. But then given what Ted said I
changed my mind and concluded surely it must be based on miracles. Now I
simply dont know. You seem to indicate the answer is no.
I said nothing whatsoever about anybody caving on anything.
The problem is, how do we know one thing involved supernatural
intervention and another thing didnt?
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 6:49 PM, John Walley <email@example.com>
No I am not sure why you would ask that. What TE does explain however is
how the scientific evidence can reveal that the earth is 4.5 billion
years old and that man shares a common ancestor with other life forms and
that be perfectly consistent with a faith in the God of the Bible as our
I accept and hold to the VB and the resurrection with no other
explanation needed other than a miracle of God. That doesn't mean I need
to appeal to miracles for things that we have a natural explanation for
I feel this is mischief on your part as you are trying to imply that if
TE's cave on special creation then we cave on all supernatural
intervention and I reject that.
--- On Mon, 12/15/08, David Clounch <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
> From: David Clounch <email@example.com>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Anti-Creationism Lecture
> To: "ASA" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 5:23 AM
> Are you saying that TE explains the virgin birth and
> resurrection of Jesus
> Thanks and Best Regards,
> David Clounch
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 7:49 AM, email@example.com <
> firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
> > Dick,
> > Thanks for this poignant and thoughtful observation.
> That really puts this
> > holiday season in perspective by reminding me just how
> much I have to be
> > thankful for and how valuable the true meaning of
> Christmas really is.
> > It is true that the world has rejected what they need
> most but in part it
> > is because we have forced them to by allowing the YEC
> mafia to take over the
> > evangelical church and drive this wedge into them
> between science and faith.
> > The assurance of evolution being true and creationism
> being false is the
> > only hope that most of these in the world with any
> educaton have. At least
> > that is something that their instinctive spiritual
> discernment abilities
> > have led them to.
> > But it is without joy for them because they perceive
> that their options are
> > only either/or and don't know that they can still
> hold on to their
> > intellectual truths and still be an intellectually
> fulfilled Christian at
> > the same time. This is what we have to fix by
> presenting a gospel to them
> > that is consistent with the truths that has already
> been revealed to them
> > instead of at war with them.
> > We need more like McGrath and Collins and miller who
> risk their repuatation
> > and career to take a bold stand with their faith to
> help reach these
> > disenfrancised intellectuals. And we need honest and
> smart evangelical
> > churches where these new converts can find a spiritual
> home and where the
> > dangers of strict concordant literalism is guarded
> against and repudiated.
> > In short, it is coming down to TE'ers to save
> Christianity. I know this
> > sounds delusional but I think an integrated
> science/faith worldview is going
> > to be central to the next wave of Christian revival
> simply because that is
> > the battleground that the enemy has chosen to
> discredit Christianity on and
> > therefore the new standard that God is raising up.
> Once we cleanse the
> > household of faith of all our spiritual pride and
> self-righteousness and
> > idolatry, then we will be in a position to call out
> Dawkins on his own.
> > I am optimistic to hear of new political leaders that
> claim Christian faith
> > outside of the traditional confines of these backward
> > In order for us ever to be effective against Dawkins
> and his ilk, we are
> > going to have to switch our game up on them a little
> bit. The status quo is
> > too easy to discredit and dismiss. I pray with you
> that together we can
> > help affect this much needed change.
> > And happy holidays!
> > Thanks
> > John
> > Dick Fischer wrote:
> > > This afternoon I attended a lecture
> > > on Creationism at the National Science Foundation
> facility in Arlington ,
> > VA. It was sponsored by the National Capital
> > > Area Skeptics. Frankly, it was a
> > > delightful, witty presentation by a retired
> anthropologist who had been
> > > associated with the Smithsonian and had taught at
> George Mason University
> > . She knew the arguments and weaknesses of
> > > creationism and the only mistake I heard her make
> was she showed a
> > picture of
> > > Duane Gish and thought he had already died. (I
> sent her an email and
> > told her to
> > > delete that part of his resume.
> > >
> > > I remember thinking as I was riding the Metro to
> Arlington that it was
> > > odd to hold this kind of lecture so close to
> Christmas. Also, what with
> > shopping and stuff how
> > > would you get an audience? I was
> > > amazed that the lecture room at the NSF was
> packed with only a few chairs
> > > vacant. But what struck me even
> > > more were the people who attended.
> > > We have all looked out over church audiences and
> seen smiling faces,
> > friends
> > > sitting together, couples and families.
> > > Of the some 200 or so who were there I saw no
> two arrive together. No
> > husbands and wives. No children. No smiles.
> > >
> > > Richard Leakey in the prologue to his book
> Origins Reconsidered ,
> > referring to the question and answer
> > > sessions that close his public lectures, wrote:
> "The audiences that come
> > > to hear me are, I often feel, seeking a kind of
> reassurance." And
> > that's what I saw today in the
> > > faces of those who came out to hear a lecture on
> evolution twelve days
> > before
> > > Christmas. Faces that
> > > were sad, lonely, isolated, detached, and looking
> for that kind of
> > > assurance. They were putting their
> > > faith in science but their faces told a revealing
> > >
> > > Riding the Metro back home gave me time to
> answer my own
> > > question. Of course, this was
> > > Christmas time, a joyous time for believers, and
> this audience was
> > largely made
> > > up of non-believers. They needed
> > > something, you could see it in their faces, but
> they had already rejected
> > what
> > > they needed most.
> > >
> > > Dick Fischer, GPA president
> > > Genesis Proclaimed Association
> > > "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and
> > > History"
> > > www.genesisproclaimed.org
> > >
> > >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to email@example.com
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of
> the message.
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Received on Mon Dec 15 13:27:28 2008
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