Re: [asa] Anti-Creationism Lecture

From: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon Dec 15 2008 - 08:54:12 EST

The answer to your question is that we use common sense and our God given judgement and also the findings of science as well.

This is the same argument used to oppose Kepler and Copernicus. It was held that God's angels shuttled the planets through the sky and anything that opposed this miraculous providence of God was preceived as a threat.

Because God chose to use the miraculous at the VB and the Resurrection, that does not make Him a one trick pony.

Thanks

John

--- On Mon, 12/15/08, David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Anti-Creationism Lecture
> To: john_walley@yahoo.com
> Cc: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 2:46 PM
> I'm trying to get an answer as to whether TE is based on
> miracles or whether
> it is not based on miracles. At first I thought the answer
> is that no it is
> not based on miracles. But then given what Ted said I
> changed my mind and
> concluded surely it must be based on miracles. Now I simply
> dont know. You
> seem to indicate the answer is no.
>
> I said nothing whatsoever about anybody caving on anything.
>
> The problem is, how do we know one thing involved
> supernatural intervention
> and another thing didnt?
>
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> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 6:49 PM, John Walley
> <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > No I am not sure why you would ask that. What TE does
> explain however is
> > how the scientific evidence can reveal that the earth
> is 4.5 billion years
> > old and that man shares a common ancestor with other
> life forms and that be
> > perfectly consistent with a faith in the God of the
> Bible as our Creator.
> >
> > I accept and hold to the VB and the resurrection with
> no other explanation
> > needed other than a miracle of God. That doesn't
> mean I need to appeal to
> > miracles for things that we have a natural explanation
> for however.
> >
> > I feel this is mischief on your part as you are trying
> to imply that if
> > TE's cave on special creation then we cave on all
> supernatural intervention
> > and I reject that.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 12/15/08, David Clounch
> <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: David Clounch
> <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [asa] Anti-Creationism Lecture
> > > To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
> > > Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 5:23 AM
> > > John,
> > >
> > > Are you saying that TE explains the virgin birth
> and
> > > resurrection of Jesus
> > > Christ?
> > >
> > > Thanks and Best Regards,
> > > David Clounch
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 7:49 AM,
> john_walley@yahoo.com <
> > > john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Dick,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for this poignant and thoughtful
> observation.
> > > That really puts this
> > > > holiday season in perspective by reminding
> me just how
> > > much I have to be
> > > > thankful for and how valuable the true
> meaning of
> > > Christmas really is.
> > > >
> > > > It is true that the world has rejected what
> they need
> > > most but in part it
> > > > is because we have forced them to by
> allowing the YEC
> > > mafia to take over the
> > > > evangelical church and drive this wedge into
> them
> > > between science and faith.
> > > > The assurance of evolution being true and
> creationism
> > > being false is the
> > > > only hope that most of these in the world
> with any
> > > educaton have. At least
> > > > that is something that their instinctive
> spiritual
> > > discernment abilities
> > > > have led them to.
> > > >
> > > > But it is without joy for them because they
> perceive
> > > that their options are
> > > > only either/or and don't know that they
> can still
> > > hold on to their
> > > > intellectual truths and still be an
> intellectually
> > > fulfilled Christian at
> > > > the same time. This is what we have to fix
> by
> > > presenting a gospel to them
> > > > that is consistent with the truths that has
> already
> > > been revealed to them
> > > > instead of at war with them.
> > > >
> > > > We need more like McGrath and Collins and
> miller who
> > > risk their repuatation
> > > > and career to take a bold stand with their
> faith to
> > > help reach these
> > > > disenfrancised intellectuals. And we need
> honest and
> > > smart evangelical
> > > > churches where these new converts can find a
> spiritual
> > > home and where the
> > > > dangers of strict concordant literalism is
> guarded
> > > against and repudiated.
> > > >
> > > > In short, it is coming down to TE'ers to
> save
> > > Christianity. I know this
> > > > sounds delusional but I think an integrated
> > > science/faith worldview is going
> > > > to be central to the next wave of Christian
> revival
> > > simply because that is
> > > > the battleground that the enemy has chosen
> to
> > > discredit Christianity on and
> > > > therefore the new standard that God is
> raising up.
> > > Once we cleanse the
> > > > household of faith of all our spiritual
> pride and
> > > self-righteousness and
> > > > idolatry, then we will be in a position to
> call out
> > > Dawkins on his own.
> > > >
> > > > I am optimistic to hear of new political
> leaders that
> > > claim Christian faith
> > > > outside of the traditional confines of these
> backward
> > > beliefs.
> > > > In order for us ever to be effective against
> Dawkins
> > > and his ilk, we are
> > > > going to have to switch our game up on them
> a little
> > > bit. The status quo is
> > > > too easy to discredit and dismiss. I pray
> with you
> > > that together we can
> > > > help affect this much needed change.
> > > >
> > > > And happy holidays!
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dick Fischer wrote:
> > > > > This afternoon I attended a lecture
> > > > > on Creationism at the National Science
> Foundation
> > > facility in Arlington ,
> > > > VA. It was sponsored by the National
> Capital
> > > > > Area Skeptics. Frankly, it was a
> > > > > delightful, witty presentation by a
> retired
> > > anthropologist who had been
> > > > > associated with the Smithsonian and had
> taught at
> > > George Mason University
> > > > . She knew the arguments and weaknesses of
> > > > > creationism and the only mistake I
> heard her make
> > > was she showed a
> > > > picture of
> > > > > Duane Gish and thought he had already
> died. (I
> > > sent her an email and
> > > > told her to
> > > > > delete that part of his resume.
> > > > >
> > > > > I remember thinking as I was riding
> the Metro to
> > > Arlington that it was
> > > > > odd to hold this kind of lecture so
> close to
> > > Christmas. Also, what with
> > > > shopping and stuff how
> > > > > would you get an audience? I was
> > > > > amazed that the lecture room at the NSF
> was
> > > packed with only a few chairs
> > > > > vacant. But what struck me even
> > > > > more were the people who attended.
> > > > > We have all looked out over church
> audiences and
> > > seen smiling faces,
> > > > friends
> > > > > sitting together, couples and families.
> > > > > Of the some 200 or so who were there I
> saw no
> > > two arrive together. No
> > > > husbands and wives. No children. No
> smiles.
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard Leakey in the prologue to his
> book
> > > Origins Reconsidered ,
> > > > referring to the question and answer
> > > > > sessions that close his public
> lectures, wrote:
> > > "The audiences that come
> > > > > to hear me are, I often feel, seeking a
> kind of
> > > reassurance." And
> > > > that's what I saw today in the
> > > > > faces of those who came out to hear a
> lecture on
> > > evolution twelve days
> > > > before
> > > > > Christmas. Faces that
> > > > > were sad, lonely, isolated, detached,
> and looking
> > > for that kind of
> > > > > assurance. They were putting their
> > > > > faith in science but their faces told a
> revealing
> > > story.
> > > > >
> > > > > Riding the Metro back home gave me
> time to
> > > answer my own
> > > > > question. Of course, this was
> > > > > Christmas time, a joyous time for
> believers, and
> > > this audience was
> > > > largely made
> > > > > up of non-believers. They needed
> > > > > something, you could see it in their
> faces, but
> > > they had already rejected
> > > > what
> > > > > they needed most.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dick Fischer, GPA president
> > > > > Genesis Proclaimed Association
> > > > > "Finding Harmony in Bible,
> Science and
> > > > > History"
> > > > > www.genesisproclaimed.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, send a message to
> majordomo@calvin.edu
> > > with
> > > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as
> the body of
> > > the message.
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >

      

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Received on Mon Dec 15 08:54:25 2008

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