RE: [asa] Anti-Creationism Lecture

From: Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net>
Date: Mon Dec 15 2008 - 00:10:33 EST

Hi David:
 
TE, as opposed to ID, shuns miraculous intervention in the evolution of
species. A kick start at the inception of the Big Bang would be
generally accepted or else we would be deistic rather than theistic.
Where miracles are identified in the Bible most of us would allow that
they were just that, although some do suggest at least some of those
could have had natural explanations, such as the parting of the Red Sea.
TEs could differ as to whether the Cecil B. De Mille version was an
accurate depiction or whether something else was afoot. The
resurrection is a matter of faith in the supernatural intervention of
God for almost the entirety of TEs. I know of only one who thinks there
could have been a natural explanation for that. So I would say in
general that TEs believe natural explanations are sufficient to describe
the progression of life although the inception of life or the cause of
life at the beginning is likely to have involved a divine helping hand.
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David Clounch
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:47 PM
To: john_walley@yahoo.com
Cc: ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] Anti-Creationism Lecture
 
I'm trying to get an answer as to whether TE is based on miracles or
whether it is not based on miracles. At first I thought the answer is
that no it is not based on miracles. But then given what Ted said I
changed my mind and concluded surely it must be based on miracles. Now I
simply dont know. You seem to indicate the answer is no.

I said nothing whatsoever about anybody caving on anything.

The problem is, how do we know one thing involved supernatural
intervention and another thing didnt?

    

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 6:49 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
wrote:
No I am not sure why you would ask that. What TE does explain however is
how the scientific evidence can reveal that the earth is 4.5 billion
years old and that man shares a common ancestor with other life forms
and that be perfectly consistent with a faith in the God of the Bible as
our Creator.

I accept and hold to the VB and the resurrection with no other
explanation needed other than a miracle of God. That doesn't mean I need
to appeal to miracles for things that we have a natural explanation for
however.

I feel this is mischief on your part as you are trying to imply that if
TE's cave on special creation then we cave on all supernatural
intervention and I reject that.

Thanks

John

--- On Mon, 12/15/08, David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [asa] Anti-Creationism Lecture
> To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 5:23 AM
> John,
>
> Are you saying that TE explains the virgin birth and
> resurrection of Jesus
> Christ?
>
> Thanks and Best Regards,
> David Clounch
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 7:49 AM, john_walley@yahoo.com <
> john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Dick,
> >
> > Thanks for this poignant and thoughtful observation.
> That really puts this
> > holiday season in perspective by reminding me just how
> much I have to be
> > thankful for and how valuable the true meaning of
> Christmas really is.
> >
> > It is true that the world has rejected what they need
> most but in part it
> > is because we have forced them to by allowing the YEC
> mafia to take over the
> > evangelical church and drive this wedge into them
> between science and faith.
> > The assurance of evolution being true and creationism
> being false is the
> > only hope that most of these in the world with any
> educaton have. At least
> > that is something that their instinctive spiritual
> discernment abilities
> > have led them to.
> >
> > But it is without joy for them because they perceive
> that their options are
> > only either/or and don't know that they can still
> hold on to their
> > intellectual truths and still be an intellectually
> fulfilled Christian at
> > the same time. This is what we have to fix by
> presenting a gospel to them
> > that is consistent with the truths that has already
> been revealed to them
> > instead of at war with them.
> >
> > We need more like McGrath and Collins and miller who
> risk their repuatation
> > and career to take a bold stand with their faith to
> help reach these
> > disenfrancised intellectuals. And we need honest and
> smart evangelical
> > churches where these new converts can find a spiritual
> home and where the
> > dangers of strict concordant literalism is guarded
> against and repudiated.
> >
> > In short, it is coming down to TE'ers to save
> Christianity. I know this
> > sounds delusional but I think an integrated
> science/faith worldview is going
> > to be central to the next wave of Christian revival
> simply because that is
> > the battleground that the enemy has chosen to
> discredit Christianity on and
> > therefore the new standard that God is raising up.
> Once we cleanse the
> > household of faith of all our spiritual pride and
> self-righteousness and
> > idolatry, then we will be in a position to call out
> Dawkins on his own.
> >
> > I am optimistic to hear of new political leaders that
> claim Christian faith
> > outside of the traditional confines of these backward
> beliefs.
> > In order for us ever to be effective against Dawkins
> and his ilk, we are
> > going to have to switch our game up on them a little
> bit. The status quo is
> > too easy to discredit and dismiss. I pray with you
> that together we can
> > help affect this much needed change.
> >
> > And happy holidays!
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dick Fischer wrote:
> > > This afternoon I attended a lecture
> > > on Creationism at the National Science Foundation
> facility in Arlington ,
> > VA. It was sponsored by the National Capital
> > > Area Skeptics. Frankly, it was a
> > > delightful, witty presentation by a retired
> anthropologist who had been
> > > associated with the Smithsonian and had taught at
> George Mason University
> > . She knew the arguments and weaknesses of
> > > creationism and the only mistake I heard her make
> was she showed a
> > picture of
> > > Duane Gish and thought he had already died. (I
> sent her an email and
> > told her to
> > > delete that part of his resume.
> > >
> > > I remember thinking as I was riding the Metro to
> Arlington that it was
> > > odd to hold this kind of lecture so close to
> Christmas. Also, what with
> > shopping and stuff how
> > > would you get an audience? I was
> > > amazed that the lecture room at the NSF was
> packed with only a few chairs
> > > vacant. But what struck me even
> > > more were the people who attended.
> > > We have all looked out over church audiences and
> seen smiling faces,
> > friends
> > > sitting together, couples and families.
> > > Of the some 200 or so who were there I saw no
> two arrive together. No
> > husbands and wives. No children. No smiles.
> > >
> > > Richard Leakey in the prologue to his book
> Origins Reconsidered ,
> > referring to the question and answer
> > > sessions that close his public lectures, wrote:
> "The audiences that come
> > > to hear me are, I often feel, seeking a kind of
> reassurance." And
> > that's what I saw today in the
> > > faces of those who came out to hear a lecture on
> evolution twelve days
> > before
> > > Christmas. Faces that
> > > were sad, lonely, isolated, detached, and looking
> for that kind of
> > > assurance. They were putting their
> > > faith in science but their faces told a revealing
> story.
> > >
> > > Riding the Metro back home gave me time to
> answer my own
> > > question. Of course, this was
> > > Christmas time, a joyous time for believers, and
> this audience was
> > largely made
> > > up of non-believers. They needed
> > > something, you could see it in their faces, but
> they had already rejected
> > what
> > > they needed most.
> > >
> > > Dick Fischer, GPA president
> > > Genesis Proclaimed Association
> > > "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and
> > > History"
> > > www.genesisproclaimed.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
> with
> > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of
> the message.
> >

 

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Received on Mon Dec 15 00:10:49 2008

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