Re: [asa] Anti-Creationism Lecture

From: David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
Date: Sun Dec 14 2008 - 22:46:32 EST

I'm trying to get an answer as to whether TE is based on miracles or whether
it is not based on miracles. At first I thought the answer is that no it is
not based on miracles. But then given what Ted said I changed my mind and
concluded surely it must be based on miracles. Now I simply dont know. You
seem to indicate the answer is no.

I said nothing whatsoever about anybody caving on anything.

The problem is, how do we know one thing involved supernatural intervention
and another thing didnt?

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 6:49 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

> No I am not sure why you would ask that. What TE does explain however is
> how the scientific evidence can reveal that the earth is 4.5 billion years
> old and that man shares a common ancestor with other life forms and that be
> perfectly consistent with a faith in the God of the Bible as our Creator.
>
> I accept and hold to the VB and the resurrection with no other explanation
> needed other than a miracle of God. That doesn't mean I need to appeal to
> miracles for things that we have a natural explanation for however.
>
> I feel this is mischief on your part as you are trying to imply that if
> TE's cave on special creation then we cave on all supernatural intervention
> and I reject that.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>
> --- On Mon, 12/15/08, David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: David Clounch <david.clounch@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [asa] Anti-Creationism Lecture
> > To: "ASA" <asa@calvin.edu>
> > Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 5:23 AM
> > John,
> >
> > Are you saying that TE explains the virgin birth and
> > resurrection of Jesus
> > Christ?
> >
> > Thanks and Best Regards,
> > David Clounch
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 7:49 AM, john_walley@yahoo.com <
> > john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Dick,
> > >
> > > Thanks for this poignant and thoughtful observation.
> > That really puts this
> > > holiday season in perspective by reminding me just how
> > much I have to be
> > > thankful for and how valuable the true meaning of
> > Christmas really is.
> > >
> > > It is true that the world has rejected what they need
> > most but in part it
> > > is because we have forced them to by allowing the YEC
> > mafia to take over the
> > > evangelical church and drive this wedge into them
> > between science and faith.
> > > The assurance of evolution being true and creationism
> > being false is the
> > > only hope that most of these in the world with any
> > educaton have. At least
> > > that is something that their instinctive spiritual
> > discernment abilities
> > > have led them to.
> > >
> > > But it is without joy for them because they perceive
> > that their options are
> > > only either/or and don't know that they can still
> > hold on to their
> > > intellectual truths and still be an intellectually
> > fulfilled Christian at
> > > the same time. This is what we have to fix by
> > presenting a gospel to them
> > > that is consistent with the truths that has already
> > been revealed to them
> > > instead of at war with them.
> > >
> > > We need more like McGrath and Collins and miller who
> > risk their repuatation
> > > and career to take a bold stand with their faith to
> > help reach these
> > > disenfrancised intellectuals. And we need honest and
> > smart evangelical
> > > churches where these new converts can find a spiritual
> > home and where the
> > > dangers of strict concordant literalism is guarded
> > against and repudiated.
> > >
> > > In short, it is coming down to TE'ers to save
> > Christianity. I know this
> > > sounds delusional but I think an integrated
> > science/faith worldview is going
> > > to be central to the next wave of Christian revival
> > simply because that is
> > > the battleground that the enemy has chosen to
> > discredit Christianity on and
> > > therefore the new standard that God is raising up.
> > Once we cleanse the
> > > household of faith of all our spiritual pride and
> > self-righteousness and
> > > idolatry, then we will be in a position to call out
> > Dawkins on his own.
> > >
> > > I am optimistic to hear of new political leaders that
> > claim Christian faith
> > > outside of the traditional confines of these backward
> > beliefs.
> > > In order for us ever to be effective against Dawkins
> > and his ilk, we are
> > > going to have to switch our game up on them a little
> > bit. The status quo is
> > > too easy to discredit and dismiss. I pray with you
> > that together we can
> > > help affect this much needed change.
> > >
> > > And happy holidays!
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dick Fischer wrote:
> > > > This afternoon I attended a lecture
> > > > on Creationism at the National Science Foundation
> > facility in Arlington ,
> > > VA. It was sponsored by the National Capital
> > > > Area Skeptics. Frankly, it was a
> > > > delightful, witty presentation by a retired
> > anthropologist who had been
> > > > associated with the Smithsonian and had taught at
> > George Mason University
> > > . She knew the arguments and weaknesses of
> > > > creationism and the only mistake I heard her make
> > was she showed a
> > > picture of
> > > > Duane Gish and thought he had already died. (I
> > sent her an email and
> > > told her to
> > > > delete that part of his resume.
> > > >
> > > > I remember thinking as I was riding the Metro to
> > Arlington that it was
> > > > odd to hold this kind of lecture so close to
> > Christmas. Also, what with
> > > shopping and stuff how
> > > > would you get an audience? I was
> > > > amazed that the lecture room at the NSF was
> > packed with only a few chairs
> > > > vacant. But what struck me even
> > > > more were the people who attended.
> > > > We have all looked out over church audiences and
> > seen smiling faces,
> > > friends
> > > > sitting together, couples and families.
> > > > Of the some 200 or so who were there I saw no
> > two arrive together. No
> > > husbands and wives. No children. No smiles.
> > > >
> > > > Richard Leakey in the prologue to his book
> > Origins Reconsidered ,
> > > referring to the question and answer
> > > > sessions that close his public lectures, wrote:
> > "The audiences that come
> > > > to hear me are, I often feel, seeking a kind of
> > reassurance." And
> > > that's what I saw today in the
> > > > faces of those who came out to hear a lecture on
> > evolution twelve days
> > > before
> > > > Christmas. Faces that
> > > > were sad, lonely, isolated, detached, and looking
> > for that kind of
> > > > assurance. They were putting their
> > > > faith in science but their faces told a revealing
> > story.
> > > >
> > > > Riding the Metro back home gave me time to
> > answer my own
> > > > question. Of course, this was
> > > > Christmas time, a joyous time for believers, and
> > this audience was
> > > largely made
> > > > up of non-believers. They needed
> > > > something, you could see it in their faces, but
> > they had already rejected
> > > what
> > > > they needed most.
> > > >
> > > > Dick Fischer, GPA president
> > > > Genesis Proclaimed Association
> > > > "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and
> > > > History"
> > > > www.genesisproclaimed.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu
> > with
> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of
> > the message.
> > >
>
>
>
>

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Received on Sun Dec 14 22:46:47 2008

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