Re: [asa] EIC (Evolutionary Informed Christian)

From: David Clounch <>
Date: Sat Dec 13 2008 - 22:37:15 EST

In general I liked and enjoyed your answer. It made me appreciate your
position a bit more.

But I'm writing here to remark, did you really say "Evolutionary
creationist"?? Wow. Interesting term.

I myself used to talk about "random creationism" meaning the belief that
random events create information ex nihilo. The idea that new
information, never seen before, is created where none was before.

Right or wrong may I be, that, to me, is the very essence of the idea of
what materialists conceive evolutionary theory to be.

The idea of random creationism occurred to me while listening to a
discussion between Del Ratsch, Chris Macosko, and Mark Borrego after Del
gave a talk on Darwin. (I hope I spelled all their names correctly).

For the record, I utterly disbelieve that randomness produces information.
There is only one way I can conceive of it doing so: if information pops
out of empty space much like a virtual particle.

But materialists surely must believe that information comes from somewhere.
I am confused about that source may be. If it isnt symmetry (where symmetry
is pre-existing information, not new information) and isnt created randomly
(ie, isnt randomness ) then what is it?

Dave C (Asa member) PS, I hope I am not asking a really dumb question.

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 1:47 PM, Gregory Arago <>wrote:

> Hi Don,
> EIC - It seems I missed this earlier. Sounds interesting! Would it be
> Evolutionary Informed Christians or Evolutionarily Informed Christians? Or
> even Christians Informed about Evolution (CIE)? Or perhaps Christians who
> Accept (or Acknowledge) Evolution (CAE)?
> As you can see, I'm behind getting rid of TE; something like "Christians
> who accept biological evolution" seems to be much more responsible to
> community and much less intertwined with ideology.
> Cheers, Gregory
> p.s. curious why are you not also joining in at CiS list, from down there
> in Queen's land?
> --- On *Sat, 12/13/08, <>*wrote:
> From: <>
> Subject: [asa] EIC (Evolutionary Informed Christian) ][ was Promise trumps
> biology (accepting biological evolution for Adam)
> To: "George Murphy" <>
> Cc: "ASA list" <>
> Received: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 10:29 PM
> Goerge Murphy wrote:
> > 1) As I've tried to explain before, I don't consider the term
> "theistic
> > evolutionist" a major issue. It certainly has its drawbacks. It
> implies
> > that the person's major commitment is to "evolution" - i.e.,
> he/she is an
> > "evolutionist" - & that that commitment is then qualified as
> "theistic."
> > But if one's "theism" is an expression of fundamental
> religious
> > conviction, "ultimate concern," then things should be the other
> way
> > around. In addition, then the label "theistic" is very general
> so the
> > term TE conflates a huge number of very diverse positions, so that a
> > Jewish process theologian & B.B. Warfield could be lumped together.
> > (Actually the 2d problem is a consequence of the 1st. It doesn't
> really
> > matter what kind of theist you are as long as you're an evolutionist.)
> >
> > But I'm not going to spend a lot of time & energy fighting that
> > terminology. There are more important issues. I'll make the point
> that I
> > did above & as long as the terminology doesn't distort
> conversations I'm
> > involved in I'll leave it at that. "Evolutionary
> creationist" is in some
> > ways better but still not ideal. "Christian who accepts biological
> > evolution" as a description of my position is clumsy but about as
> good as
> > 5) Yes, the reason for skepticism about origin from a single couple comes
> > from science. But it's not a matter of me speaking as a scientist
> rather
> > than as a theologian. This is, after all, not my area of scientific
> > expertise. It is rather me as a theologian willing to be informed by
> > science. But note, "be informed by" doesn't mean "be
> dictated to by."
> >
> > Shalom
> > George
> I suggest that the two points made by George are covered by my proposal
> that we talk about EICs (Evolutionary Informed Christians)
> Don
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Received on Sat Dec 13 22:37:55 2008

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