Re: [asa] promise trumps biology

From: George Murphy <>
Date: Thu Dec 11 2008 - 08:42:34 EST

Back in the 50s there was a book of cartoons (I think originally from The New Yorker) with appropriate captions titled Fractured French. The point of the jokes was the vague resemblance between common French phrases and things they "sound like" in English - e.g., fin de siecle = "I'll give you five bucks for the bicycle." I think it will be seen from the examples Dick gives that his arguments rely pretty heavily on such "sounds like" etymologies.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Dick Fischer
  Cc: ASA
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:31 AM
  Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology

  Hi John:


  I wouldn't be so quick to throw in the towel. The past 28 years I have spent researching Genesis have strengthened my faith in the integrity of Genesis enormously. I have seen numerous connections both small and large that have convinced me Genesis 2-11 was intended as a true historical account of the Israelite nation. You do have to make allowances for scribal mistakes, errors in translation, Hebrew expressions and manners of speech, and their egocentricity though.


  The region of the Near East has been excavated and analyzed quite thoroughly over the years. We believe animal sacrifice began with Adam and spread to his people. Even the Sumerians picked it up. I read a book in the Library of Congress that was nothing more than a list of cattle receipts from the market at Drehem. One entry caught my attention. It was a receipt for "unblemished cattle for sacrifice."


  No cities that existed earlier than Eridu show signs of animal sacrifice. Eridu is the first city to bear the signs of animal sacrifice. Eridu was dated at 4800 BC and according to Babylonian tradition was near the Garden of Eden. Even edin means "plain;" "prairie," or "desert" in Akkadian and Sumerian.


  The name "Adamu" perpetuated for centuries among the Akkadians. Even two Egyptian pyramids were inscribed with the name of the first "created" being as "Atum," and one of his sons was named "Seth." Who else could it be?


  Eve was taken from Adam's rib and she was the "mother of all living." Because the word for rib and life was the same in Sumerian, a play on words was "the lady of the rib is the lady of life."


  Cain named his city Enoch and the Sumerians called that city unug in the Sumerian king list. Following the entry for Ziusudra, the Sumerian version of Noah, it says: "Then the flood swept thereover."


  The "fountains of the deep" broke up in the flood according to Genesis and the exact same expression in Atrahasis shows clearly it pertained to their irrigation apparatus.


  The Akkadians worshipped a trinity or at least a triad of gods. The Sumerians readily adopted them and they are always depicted in Akkadian dress.


  The Tower of Babel was one of over 30 ziggurats that were built in the region initially as a means to survive frequent floods. It was destroyed by Sennacherib, rebuilt by Nebuchadnezzar, and visited by the first historian, Herodotus.


  Nimrod ruled in Babylon and a statue of him was unearthed at the city of Birs Nimrud.


  I could go on and relate dozens of connections that in totality are entirely convincing to me that Genesis 2-11 is valid history, but you know how to access the information, John. Go to any library and request the book on interlibrary loan. It costs you nothing.


  Dick Fischer, GPA president

  Genesis Proclaimed Association

  "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"



  -----Original Message-----
  From: [] On Behalf Of John Walley
  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:52 PM
  To:; Dehler, Bernie
  Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology


> I think honesty requires us to read it

> as intended, and then deal with it according to the

> truth/light that we have. It is unreasonable to think that

> the text is trying to describe a local flood, or that a

> local flood could fulfill the passage.



  I agree with this analysis. It is unpleasant to us and puts the lie to the Bibliolatrous Inerrancy doctrine but as Bernie says, intellectual honesty and integrity demands it.


  Sorry but we have to grow up and face this. Its the dirty little secret of the church that the Bible isn't really what we were all raised to think it was. That doesn't mean it still isn't inspired and contains truth about all the important doctrines of Christianity, but just that it is not a silver bullet to answer all of life's questions and with magic powers.


  I wished someone would have explained it to me this way when I was a young Christian.







  --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Dehler, Bernie <> wrote:


> From: Dehler, Bernie <>

> Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology

> To: "" <>

> Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 11:44 AM

> If the writer wanted to make the reader clear that it really

> was the whole world, he might put in extra words to be very

> clear about that. And that's what he did by saying how

> long the flood was (1 year, which is impossible from

> experience for a local flood) and how it covered the highest

> mountain and then some.


> A local flood requires a bowl shape to keep in water. If

> the water goes over the roof of the bowl, it can't be

> contained. Scripture clearly says the water went over the

> mountains. It follows that it went over, it wasn't just

> spilling, but also filling up, so the whole Earth was

> covered in water-- it spilled over until the water was the

> same level everywhere until it couldn't spill over any

> more and the water level simply covered the tallest mountain

> and then some, as scripture says.


> Why not just believe it, literaly? Because of science. The

> writers of the Bible didn't have this scientific

> knowledge. We do. I think honesty requires us to read it

> as intended, and then deal with it according to the

> truth/light that we have. It is unreasonable to think that

> the text is trying to describe a local flood, or that a

> local flood could fulfill the passage.


> ...Bernie


> -----Original Message-----

> From:

> [] On Behalf Of George

> Cooper

> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 6:50 AM

> To:

> Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology


> Bernie,


> 2 Peter 3 does not say "whole world", regardless

> of which Bible version

> selected. This phrase, however, is used a number of times

> in the NT. But

> even these do not necessarily refer to the entire globe,

> but rather the

> whole known world, apparently.


> Consider...


> Rm 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for

> you all, that your

> faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."


> That makes sense if it is in the context of those in the

> known world, and

> not every human on the planet.



> The use of "world" in the 16th century was often

> used to refer to the cosmos

> or universe. Copernicus used it many times in his de

> Revolutionibus.


> Coope



> -----Original Message-----

> From:

> [] On

> Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie

> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 5:52 PM

> To:

> Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology


> Gordon Brown said:

> " There are problems with proof texting when one uses

> an English

> translation. The English may be more clear-cut than the

> original. In the

> Biblical languages the same word is used for land and

> earth."


> RE:

> 2 Peter 3:

> 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged

> and destroyed.


> Here it says the whole "world."


> Strong's says this:



> None of those options (in the definition by Strongs)

> involve a partial

> covering of the Earth.


> Literally, I think it is clear Peter meant the whole world.

> I think he was

> wrong, because he didn't have the luxury of science as

> we do now, to know

> that the whole Earth was never flooded.


> I don't see the relevance of your mentioning Deut.

> 2;25- you'll need to

> explain more fully. I think they meant the world as they

> knew it, in that

> passage.


> My point wasn't to argue the flood. My point was that

> Dick said that George

> didn't believe Moses, so it appeared to me the same

> charge could be leveled

> at Dick himself. I'm sure Moses thought the flood was

> worldwide, and wrote

> as such. If Moses (and Peter) thought the flood was local,

> he sure was a

> super lousy communicator!


> ...Bernie


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Received on Thu Dec 11 08:43:30 2008

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