RE: [asa] promise trumps biology

From: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed Dec 10 2008 - 20:52:06 EST

> I think honesty requires us to read it
> as intended, and then deal with it according to the
> truth/light that we have. It is unreasonable to think that
> the text is trying to describe a local flood, or that a
> local flood could fulfill the passage.

I agree with this analysis. It is unpleasant to us and puts the lie to the Bibliolatrous Inerrancy doctrine but as Bernie says, intellectual honesty and integrity demands it.

Sorry but we have to grow up and face this. Its the dirty little secret of the church that the Bible isn't really what we were all raised to think it was. That doesn't mean it still isn't inspired and contains truth about all the important doctrines of Christianity, but just that it is not a silver bullet to answer all of life's questions and with magic powers.

I wished someone would have explained it to me this way when I was a young Christian.

Thanks

John

--- On Wed, 12/10/08, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:

> From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
> Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
> To: "asa@calvin.edu" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 11:44 AM
> If the writer wanted to make the reader clear that it really
> was the whole world, he might put in extra words to be very
> clear about that. And that's what he did by saying how
> long the flood was (1 year, which is impossible from
> experience for a local flood) and how it covered the highest
> mountain and then some.
>
> A local flood requires a bowl shape to keep in water. If
> the water goes over the roof of the bowl, it can't be
> contained. Scripture clearly says the water went over the
> mountains. It follows that it went over, it wasn't just
> spilling, but also filling up, so the whole Earth was
> covered in water-- it spilled over until the water was the
> same level everywhere until it couldn't spill over any
> more and the water level simply covered the tallest mountain
> and then some, as scripture says.
>
> Why not just believe it, literaly? Because of science. The
> writers of the Bible didn't have this scientific
> knowledge. We do. I think honesty requires us to read it
> as intended, and then deal with it according to the
> truth/light that we have. It is unreasonable to think that
> the text is trying to describe a local flood, or that a
> local flood could fulfill the passage.
>
> ...Bernie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of George
> Cooper
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 6:50 AM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
>
> Bernie,
>
> 2 Peter 3 does not say "whole world", regardless
> of which Bible version
> selected. This phrase, however, is used a number of times
> in the NT. But
> even these do not necessarily refer to the entire globe,
> but rather the
> whole known world, apparently.
>
> Consider...
>
> Rm 1:8 "First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for
> you all, that your
> faith is spoken of throughout the whole world."
>
> That makes sense if it is in the context of those in the
> known world, and
> not every human on the planet.
>
>
> The use of "world" in the 16th century was often
> used to refer to the cosmos
> or universe. Copernicus used it many times in his de
> Revolutionibus.
>
> Coope
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 5:52 PM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
>
> Gordon Brown said:
> " There are problems with proof texting when one uses
> an English
> translation. The English may be more clear-cut than the
> original. In the
> Biblical languages the same word is used for land and
> earth."
>
> RE:
> 2 Peter 3:
> 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged
> and destroyed.
>
> Here it says the whole "world."
>
> Strong's says this:
> http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2889&t=KJV
>
> None of those options (in the definition by Strongs)
> involve a partial
> covering of the Earth.
>
> Literally, I think it is clear Peter meant the whole world.
> I think he was
> wrong, because he didn't have the luxury of science as
> we do now, to know
> that the whole Earth was never flooded.
>
> I don't see the relevance of your mentioning Deut.
> 2;25- you'll need to
> explain more fully. I think they meant the world as they
> knew it, in that
> passage.
>
> My point wasn't to argue the flood. My point was that
> Dick said that George
> didn't believe Moses, so it appeared to me the same
> charge could be leveled
> at Dick himself. I'm sure Moses thought the flood was
> worldwide, and wrote
> as such. If Moses (and Peter) thought the flood was local,
> he sure was a
> super lousy communicator!
>
> ...Bernie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of gordon brown
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 1:29 PM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
>
> On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, Dehler, Bernie wrote:
>
> > RE:
> > Genesis
> 6:17<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=6&verse=17&versi
> on=31&context=verse>
> > I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to
> destroy all life under the
> heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it.
> Everything on
> earth will perish.
> >
> > Genesis
> 9:11<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=9&verse=11&versi
> on=31&context=verse>
> > I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all
> life be cut off by
> the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to
> destroy the
> earth."
> >
> > 2 Peter 3:
> > 6By these waters also the world of that time was
> deluged and destroyed.
> 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are
> reserved for fire, being
> kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly
> men.
> >
>
> There are problems with proof texting when one uses an
> English
> translation. The English may be more clear-cut than the
> original. In the
> Biblical languages the same word is used for land and
> earth. In Greek the
> word world (cosmos) is not the same as the physical earth
> (ge). For how
> much of the earth might be meant by under heaven, see
> Deuteronomy 2:25.
>
> Gordon Brown (ASA member)
>
>
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Received on Wed Dec 10 20:52:55 2008

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