Re: [asa] promise trumps biology

From: Schwarzwald <schwarzwald@gmail.com>
Date: Wed Dec 10 2008 - 15:26:32 EST

Heya. Private comment here.

I agree with you that there are a number of curiosities in Genesis that
actually make more sense if we include pre-Adamites and an older world. Just
between you and me, one thing that always surprises me is that so many
people (Christian and non) place tremendous emphasis on the past beliefs in
humanity beginning with Adam and such entirely on 'plain reading'. To me,
what seems more likely to have went on is a combination between a reading
that fills in blanks, and context - particularly a lack of any alternative
view, or even information towards such a view, at the time.

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net>wrote:

> Hi George:
>
>
>
> Josephus was an authority. He was not an inerrant authority (and we
> aren't either), and he did not write what we regard as Scripture that's
> the "God-breathed" variety Paul described. There are numerous clues the
> Adamites were not alone in the world: who did Cain marry, who were the
> Nephilim or "Giants" (Gen. 6:4), where did the Emims (Deut. 2:10, 11) and
> Zamzummims (Deut. 2:20, 21) come from, etc., but these caution flags were
> ignored.
>
>
>
> It should not be that difficult to reason out that Moses passed down to the
> Israelites the history of where they came from. That he knew, I don't
> think he had any credentials as an anthropologist. Genesis history was to
> Israel, for Israel, and about Israel. If early Christians read themselves
> into Jewish history they can be forgiven due to their ignorance. That's
> no excuse for ours.
>
>
>
> What I would suggest is that you recommend to your local library that they
> order my book, *Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham*, and after they
> get it, read it. Then let's talk. Privately, if you would prefer.
>
>
>
> Dick Fischer, GPA president
>
> Genesis Proclaimed Association
>
> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
>
> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* George Murphy
> [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 10, 2008 12:22 PM
> *To:* Dick Fischer
> *Cc:*
> ASA
>
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] promise trumps biology
>
>
>
> "Was Josephus an historian? Did he not write about the history of the
> Jews?" you began. How dare I challenge the authority of Josephus! So I
> pointed out that Josephus flatly contradicts a basic premise of your whole
> scenario, that there were other human beings around when Adam & Eve were
> created. That's not a minor matter like the identification of a river.
> Your response to this? Some shuckin' and jivin' about the Gishon and
> Cushites.
>
>
>
> In fact I'm paying more attention to Josephus than you are. He is one more
> example of the long tradition of Jews and Christians reading the early
> chapters of Genesis as if Adam & Eve were the ancestors of the entire human
> race and that the flood destroyed all humanity except Noah & his family.
> (Book I, Chapter 3, paragraph 2.) He - & that tradition in general - show
> no inkling of the existence of all the other people that you populate the
> margins of the biblical story with. Of course Josephus - & the tradition -
> were wrong about the actual history but they knew how to read.
>
>
>
> You should know from all to many discussions on this list & what I've
> written in Perspectives what my views are about the historicity of Gen.1-3
> and the flood story.
>
>
>
> As far as allowing what we've learned about the ANE to "to influence our
> archaic theology," I would suggest first that the notion that early Genesis
> must be accurate historical narrative in order to be true and authoritative
> is a pretty good example of "archaic theology." In fact, something like
> Enns' *Inspiration and Incarnation* shows why familiarity with the
> literature of the ANE should help us to get beyond that notion.
>
>
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://home.neo.rr.com/scitheologyglm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net>
>
> *To:* 'George Murphy' <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
>
> *Cc:* ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:24 AM
>
> *Subject:* RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
>
>
>
> Hi George:
>
>
>
> I think we tend to make it more complicated than it needs to be. First of
> all, did Adam and Noah exist? That's simply yes or no, no middle ground.
> They either were living human beings or mythological or theological
> constructs. If you side with the biblical authors and historical
> references then they were actual air-breathing *Homo sapiens*. If you
> choose that route then the next question becomes when and where did they
> live?
>
>
>
> Next, either they lived far enough back in time that they could feasibly
> have started the human race or their entry was too late for that. Once
> again, it is either one of the other. If the biblical account in Genesis
> 2-11 and the history of the ancient Near East has any credibility at all
> they were Neolithic characters who resided in Mesopotamia no earlier than
> 7,000 years ago.
>
>
>
> You can cloud the issue all you want with loaded terms like "pre-adamites,"
> but that doesn't change the basic picture and the decision making tree I
> just outlined.
>
>
>
> As for me personally, I didn't choose a path and then look for
> corroborating evidence. I weighed the evidence and then chose the path. Frankly,
> the evidence I have accumulated over the last 28 years is overwhelming. Of
> course, if one chooses to remain oblivious to the evidence then he or she
> could reach counter conclusions such as Adam lived in Africa 60,000 to
> 100,000 years ago, or that Adam was an invention of some imaginative
> Akkadian or Semite scribe. Although I will allow those are possibilities
> I consider them remote and totally absent any evidentiary support.
>
>
>
> As for Josephus and his limited scope of reference, he made a few mistakes
> in my humble estimation. The river Gihon named in Genesis 2 in the region
> of the Garden of Eden he equated with the Nile influencing the King James
> translators to equate "Cush" with Ethiopia and setting the stage for a
> common misunderstanding that the black race (cush means "black" in Hebrew)
> emanated from Ham. Makes absolutely no sense.
>
>
>
> But why did Josephus make that connection? Today we know that the
> original home of the Kassites, or Cushites, was in the southwest corner of
> Iran along the Kashkan/Karkheh river basin, an area called Khuzistan today.
> The name "Gihon" appears to have evolved into the Guyedes over time at that
> location. This makes good sense as all four rivers would have emptied
> directly into the Persian Gulf at that time, whereas the Nile is on a
> different continent.
>
>
>
> This initial home turned out to be a perilous location, however, as the *
> Kassi* as the Assyrians called them were sandwiched between the warlike
> nations of Assyria, Babylonia, Urartu and Elam. Whether they migrated *en
> masse* or whether only a portion of them migrated, I don't know. But when
> a new, safer location was found along the river Nile they named the river
> "Gihon" after the original river in their original homeland. Josephus
> would not have known this.
>
>
>
> Remember, we have accumulated significant archaeological evidence in the
> Near East over the last 200 years. It is just that we haven't allowed
> this evidence to influence our archaic theology.
>
>
>
> Dick Fischer, GPA president
>
> Genesis Proclaimed Association
>
> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *George Murphy
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 09, 2008 1:48 PM
> *To:* Dick Fischer
> *Cc:* ASA
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] promise trumps biology
>
>
>
> It's all very well to appeal to Josephus but then you ought to recognize
> that he doesn't know of your idea about pre-Adamites or indeed of your whole
> concordist scheme. Just to note one thing, in Book I, Chapter 1, Paragraph
> 3 he says (I'm using Whiston's old translation), "But when he saw that Adam
> had no female companion, no society (for there was no such created) ... "
> I.e. Adam was the 1st human being *simpliciter*, & before Eve was made
> from his side there weren't any others.
>
>
>
> Your way of harmonizing early Genesis with history has been worked our very
> thoroughly & is certainly better than some other concordist approaches. But
> that doesn't mean that it's true & in fact I don't buy it for a minute. For
> all its ingenuity it rests on the assumption that if early Genesis is true,
> it must be accurate history. & it requires far too much special pleading to
> make that work.
>
>
>
> As far as Mizraim is concerned, note that RSV & NRSV just translate "Egypt"
> in Gen.10:6 & 13. Of course Josephus - & Genesis - don't explicitly say
> that his descendants were the sole inhabitants of Egypt, but that's the
> natural way to read it. Why do you think that Jews & Christians read early
> Genesis for millenia assuming that what was being talked about was the whole
> world, that the 3 sons of Noah & their wives literally populated the whole
> earth, etc? It's because there's no hint in the text that that's not the
> case. The YEC reading of Gen.1-11 is of course wrong in the sense that it
> doesn't recognize the types of texts that they're dealing with and
> consequently produces flagrant conflict with real history & science. But
> when they read those chapters as straight history they read them correctly
> as straight history.
>
>
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://home.neo.rr.com/scitheologyglm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net>
>
> *To:* 'George Murphy' <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
>
> *Cc:* ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 09, 2008 11:50 AM
>
> *Subject:* RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
>
>
>
> Hi George:
>
>
>
> Was Josephus an historian? Did he not write about the history of the
> Jews? Did he not write about Noah and his descendants? How do you know
> Jewish history better than Josephus? You even question the Bible writers?
> Moses didn't know anything either?
>
>
>
> Of course Egypt was populated for thousands of years before the flood. That
> was my point. Egypt was also populated after the 2900 BC flood by Mizraim
> and his sons. In Josephus' words: "Now all the sons of Mizraim, being
> eight in number, occupied the country from Gaza to Egypt ..." Note that
> Josephus did not say they were the sole occupants. My grandparents left
> Europe and occupied Nebraska. Is everybody in Nebraska related to me?
>
>
>
> Historically Mizraim was recorded as Msrm in Ugaritic, Misri in the Amarna
> tablets, Musur in Assyrian inscriptions, and Musri to the Babylonians. An
> Arabian presence is also possible, even in Northern Syria; Tiglath-Pileser I
> appointed a governor not far distant in Musri in north Arabia. Further,
> Sargon called Pir'u Sar Musri a king who was succeeded by Samsieh, queen of
> Arabia. Mizraim's sons are listed (Gen. 10:13-14) beginning with Ludim,
> the old tribe Lewatah, referred to as Lubiim by Josephus. The A-na-mi is
> found in a geographical text from the time of Sargon II which may be linked
> with Anamim, Mizraim's second son Lehabim and Naphtuhim are recalled in 1
> Chron. 1:11, grouped with their brothers, presumably in Egypt The people of
> Pathros[i] <#11e221294cb380db__edn1> in Upper Egypt are credited to
> Pathrusim, and Casluhim is known primarily for fathering the Philistines.
> With the exception of the Philistines, the rest of Mizraim's sons leave only
> sparse traces in various parts of Egypt.
>
>
>
> I've said this all along, the flood was local, recent, and limited in those
> who died in it. And nearly every one of Noah's descendants can be traced
> to parts of the Near East, northern Africa, along the Mediterranean Sea and
> so forth, whereas none can be traced to China, southern Africa, Australia,
> Americas, etc.
>
>
>
> What's to not understand?
>
>
>
> Dick Fischer, GPA president
>
> Genesis Proclaimed Association
>
> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
>
> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 09, 2008 8:59 AM
> *To:* Dick Fischer
> *Cc:* ASA
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] promise trumps biology
>
>
>
> IMO this just shows the limits of your particular version of concordism.
> Of course not all the people of Egypt were descendants of an historical
> "Ham" - in fact the known history of Egypt predates by millennia any
> possible "historical Noah." But as far as the biblical writers are
> concerned Egypt was populated after the flood by the descendants of one of
> Noah's grandsons.
>
>
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://home.neo.rr.com/scitheologyglm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net>
>
> *To:* 'George Murphy' <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
>
> *Cc:* ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:48 AM
>
> *Subject:* RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
>
>
>
> Hi George, you wrote:
>
>
>
> >>& later in Genesis Joseph is married to an Egyptian, of the "cursed line
> of Ham."<<
>
>
>
> Well maybe, and maybe not. Although the Hebrew word for Egyptian is
> "Mizraim" (Noah's grandson) it would not be possible for the entire Egyptian
> population to have stemmed from him. Narmer was in power in Egypt before
> Mizraim was born. Pyramids depicted four distinct races living in Egypt
> and the great races were established long before Noah.
>
>
>
> Excavations in Egypt have uncovered the remains of a variant race of
> peoples who began moving in at the beginning of the dynastic period (ca.
> 2900 BC).
>
>
>
> Quoting *The Cambridge Ancient History*, "Physically these peoples
> differed unmistakably from the predynastic Egyptians: whereas the latter
> were unusually small in stature and possessed long and narrow skulls (about
> 132 mm. in breadth), the newcomers were more massively built and their
> skulls (about 139 mm. in width) were appreciably broader than those of their
> predecessors."
>
>
>
> So whether that Egyptian woman was of Semitic (or Hamitic) origin will
> forever be unknown.
>
>
>
> Dick Fischer, GPA president
>
> Genesis Proclaimed Association
>
> "Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
>
> www.genesisproclaimed.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> [i] <#11e221294cb380db__ednref1>. *The Interpreter's Dictionary of the
> Bible*, 3, 676.
>
>
>

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Received on Wed Dec 10 15:27:20 2008

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