RE: [asa] promise trumps biology

From: Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net>
Date: Wed Dec 10 2008 - 01:12:01 EST

Hi Bernie:
 
As we have pointed out frequently on this list the Hebrew word for
"earth" and "land" is the same in Hebrew. Thus every creature on the
land (the land of Shinar) died. Furthermore, "all" and "every" in
Hebrew is not identical in usage as to how we use those English words
today. When the Egyptians saved "all the corn" for seven years, we can
safely assume they didn't go without eating during that entire stretch
of time. When "all the nations" came to Joseph to buy corn we can bet
there were no Chinese in the cue. We have numerous similar examples in
the Old Testament. "All my bones are out of joint," laments the
Psalmist. Really? All 206 bones? In Hebrew usage "all" and "every"
can be taken to mean "much," "many," or "some."
 
So, yes, I take Genesis literally, but there are antiquated parts of
speech that do not coincide with how we today would describe the same
events and situations. Where we went wrong was in the earlier and even
subsequent translations. The King James translators labored under the
assumption that Adam was the first human being, that the flood was
worldwide, and that we got all our languages from the incident at Babel.
Later translators followed suit. So they translated with a presumptive
bias that has affected our interpretation negatively. What amazes me is
that we haven't caught on.
 
In the broad scope of things we are related to skunk cabbage if we go
back far enough, but normally we speak of relatives as being more
immediate than that. To answer your question more directly, I believe
Adam can be pinpointed in time and space and I have done that. Assuming
a Neolithic Adam located in the Near East, that would preclude him from
being at the apex of humanity but simply in the flow of humanity. I
can't say whether he had natural parents or not, although for various
reasons I lean toward an act of special creation, but he begins the
covenant race which puts me in agreement with Moses, the writer of
Chronicles, Hosea, Luke and Paul. I consider that good company.
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 1:12 PM
Cc: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
 
Dick said:
"You even question the Bible writers? Moses didn't know anything
either?"
 
Then Dick said:
"I've said this all along, the flood was local, recent, and limited in
those who died in it."
 
Dick, it looks to me like you are questioning George because he doesn't
take the Bible literally, then you demonstrate you also don't take it
literally, because Moses wrote that ALL life on the Earth was wiped
out.. Everything that had breath in its lungs. Aren't you being
inconsistent? You know the plain reading is that the entire Earth was
flooded- also interpreted that way by the Apostle in 2 Peter.
 
Dick, you also said:
"Is everybody in Nebraska related to me?"
 
The answer is yes, if you think we all descended from an apelike
creature (modern evolution). The answer is no if you think Adam was
made special-he would then not be related to anyone else biologically if
humans evolved except the descendents of Adam & Eve..
 
RE:
 
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=6&verse=17&versi
on=31&context=verse> Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under
the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it.
Everything on earth will perish.
 
 
<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=9&verse=11&versi
on=31&context=verse> Genesis 9:11
I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off
by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy
the earth."
 
2 Peter 3:
6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire,
being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
 
 
 
  _____

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 8:51 AM
To: 'George Murphy'
Cc: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
 
Hi George:
 
Was Josephus an historian? Did he not write about the history of the
Jews? Did he not write about Noah and his descendants? How do you know
Jewish history better than Josephus? You even question the Bible
writers? Moses didn't know anything either?
 
Of course Egypt was populated for thousands of years before the flood.
That was my point. Egypt was also populated after the 2900 BC flood by
Mizraim and his sons. In Josephus' words: "Now all the sons of Mizraim,
being eight in number, occupied the country from Gaza to Egypt ..."
Note that Josephus did not say they were the sole occupants. My
grandparents left Europe and occupied Nebraska. Is everybody in
Nebraska related to me?
 
Historically Mizraim was recorded as Msrm in Ugaritic, Misri in the
Amarna tablets, Musur in Assyrian inscriptions, and Musri to the
Babylonians. An Arabian presence is also possible, even in Northern
Syria; Tiglath-Pileser I appointed a governor not far distant in Musri
in north Arabia. Further, Sargon called Pir'u Sar Musri a king who was
succeeded by Samsieh, queen of Arabia. Mizraim's sons are listed (Gen.
10:13-14) beginning with Ludim, the old tribe Lewatah, referred to as
Lubiim by Josephus. The A-na-mi is found in a geographical text from the
time of Sargon II which may be linked with Anamim, Mizraim's second son
Lehabim and Naphtuhim are recalled in 1 Chron. 1:11, grouped with their
brothers, presumably in Egypt The people of Pathros[i] in Upper Egypt
are credited to <> Pathrusim, and Casluhim is known primarily for
fathering the Philistines. With the exception of the Philistines, the
rest of Mizraim's sons leave only sparse traces in various parts of
Egypt.
 
I've said this all along, the flood was local, recent, and limited in
those who died in it. And nearly every one of Noah's descendants can be
traced to parts of the Near East, northern Africa, along the
Mediterranean Sea and so forth, whereas none can be traced to China,
southern Africa, Australia, Americas, etc.
 
What's to not understand?
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org
 
-----Original Message-----
From: George Murphy [mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 8:59 AM
To: Dick Fischer
Cc: ASA
Subject: Re: [asa] promise trumps biology
 
IMO this just shows the limits of your particular version of concordism.
Of course not all the people of Egypt were descendants of an historical
"Ham" - in fact the known history of Egypt predates by millennia any
possible "historical Noah." But as far as the biblical writers are
concerned Egypt was populated after the flood by the descendants of one
of Noah's grandsons.
 
Shalom
George
http://home.neo.rr.com/scitheologyglm
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick <mailto:dickfischer@verizon.net> Fischer
To: 'George Murphy' <mailto:GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
Cc: ASA <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:48 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
 
Hi George, you wrote:
 
>>& later in Genesis Joseph is married to an Egyptian, of the "cursed
line of Ham."<<
 
Well maybe, and maybe not. Although the Hebrew word for Egyptian is
"Mizraim" (Noah's grandson) it would not be possible for the entire
Egyptian population to have stemmed from him. Narmer was in power in
Egypt before Mizraim was born. Pyramids depicted four distinct races
living in Egypt and the great races were established long before Noah.
 
Excavations in Egypt have uncovered the remains of a variant race of
peoples who began moving in at the beginning of the dynastic period (ca.
2900 BC).
 
Quoting The Cambridge Ancient History, "Physically these peoples
differed unmistakably from the predynastic Egyptians: whereas the latter
were unusually small in stature and possessed long and narrow skulls
(about 132 mm. in breadth), the newcomers were more massively built and
their skulls (about 139 mm. in width) were appreciably broader than
those of their predecessors."
 
So whether that Egyptian woman was of Semitic (or Hamitic) origin will
forever be unknown.
 
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
www.genesisproclaimed.org <http://www.genesisproclaimed.org/>
 
 

  _____

  _____

[i]. The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, 3, 676.
 

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Received on Wed Dec 10 01:13:13 2008

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