RE: [asa] promise trumps biology

From: Dick Fischer <>
Date: Tue Dec 09 2008 - 13:17:40 EST

Hi Michael:
Herodotus, Josephus, Berossus, and other early historians had available
to them countless records that did not survive. The libraries at
Babylon and Jerusalem were completely destroyed, as were the earlier
libraries at Ur, Kish, and Nippur. Furthermore, texts were not copied
and preserved over the centuries as were the sacred Scriptures. Even
latter day historians, Eusebius, Hippolytus, Julius Africanus, and
George Synkellos were able to draw upon earlier works that have not
I was able to access the Library of Congress because I live near
Washington, DC. David Livingstone who published Adam's Ancestors
recently had extensive facilities available in Great Britain that are
not attainable by researchers on this side of the Atlantic. And so it
goes. Even Darwin cited earlier writers in The Origin of Species. How
many of those works are still attainable?
Ussher's chronology is not too far off respecting Adam (I would guess
factoring in the Septuagint and archaeological findings he was off by
about 800 years), his mistake was in thinking all mankind, and indeed
the entire planet, was similarly dated.
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Roberts []
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:17 PM
To: Dick Fischer; 'George Murphy'
Subject: Re: [asa] promise trumps biology
Did Josephus read many historical records about Noah, who lived a little
while before Josephus?
It is hard enough for a historian to suss out what happened in the 19th
century as I have found out, when one crucial letter out of 13000 of
Darwin's went missing preventing my clinching an argument.
With at least 2500 years between Josephus and Noah (assuming Ussher to
be right - as he was on the first page of his Annales:):)] there was a
distinct shortage of material for dear Jo to use.
I cannot see how Jo could give any more than Moses or J , E, or P
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick <> Fischer
To: 'George Murphy' <>
Cc: ASA <>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 4:50 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
Hi George:
Was Josephus an historian? Did he not write about the history of the
Jews? Did he not write about Noah and his descendants? How do you know
Jewish history better than Josephus? You even question the Bible
writers? Moses didn't know anything either?
Of course Egypt was populated for thousands of years before the flood.
That was my point. Egypt was also populated after the 2900 BC flood by
Mizraim and his sons. In Josephus' words: "Now all the sons of Mizraim,
being eight in number, occupied the country from Gaza to Egypt ..."
Note that Josephus did not say they were the sole occupants. My
grandparents left Europe and occupied Nebraska. Is everybody in
Nebraska related to me?
Historically Mizraim was recorded as Msrm in Ugaritic, Misri in the
Amarna tablets, Musur in Assyrian inscriptions, and Musri to the
Babylonians. An Arabian presence is also possible, even in Northern
Syria; Tiglath-Pileser I appointed a governor not far distant in Musri
in north Arabia. Further, Sargon called Pir'u Sar Musri a king who was
succeeded by Samsieh, queen of Arabia. Mizraim's sons are listed (Gen.
10:13-14) beginning with Ludim, the old tribe Lewatah, referred to as
Lubiim by Josephus. The A-na-mi is found in a geographical text from the
time of Sargon II which may be linked with Anamim, Mizraim's second son
Lehabim and Naphtuhim are recalled in 1 Chron. 1:11, grouped with their
brothers, presumably in Egypt, The people of Pathros[i] in Upper Egypt
are credited to Pathrusim, and Casluhim is known primarily for fathering
the Philistines. With the exception of the Philistines, the rest of
Mizraim's sons leave only sparse traces in various parts of Egypt.
I've said this all along, the flood was local, recent, and limited in
those who died in it. And nearly every one of Noah's descendants can be
traced to parts of the Near East, northern Africa, along the
Mediterranean Sea and so forth, whereas none can be traced to China,
southern Africa, Australia, Americas, etc.
What's to not understand?
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History"
-----Original Message-----
From: George Murphy []
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 8:59 AM
To: Dick Fischer
Subject: Re: [asa] promise trumps biology
IMO this just shows the limits of your particular version of concordism.
Of course not all the people of Egypt were descendants of an historical
"Ham" - in fact the known history of Egypt predates by millennia any
possible "historical Noah." But as far as the biblical writers are
concerned Egypt was populated after the flood by the descendants of one
of Noah's grandsons.
----- Original Message -----
From: Dick <> Fischer
To: 'George Murphy' <>
Cc: ASA <>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 12:48 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] promise trumps biology
Hi George, you wrote:
>>& later in Genesis Joseph is married to an Egyptian, of the "cursed
line of Ham."<<
Well maybe, and maybe not. Although the Hebrew word for Egyptian is
"Mizraim" (Noah's grandson) it would not be possible for the entire
Egyptian population to have stemmed from him. Narmer was in power in
Egypt before Mizraim was born. Pyramids depicted four distinct races
living in Egypt and the great races were established long before Noah.
Excavations in Egypt have uncovered the remains of a variant race of
peoples who began moving in at the beginning of the dynastic period (ca.
2900 BC).
Quoting The Cambridge Ancient History, "Physically these peoples
differed unmistakably from the predynastic Egyptians: whereas the latter
were unusually small in stature and possessed long and narrow skulls
(about 132 mm. in breadth), the newcomers were more massively built and
their skulls (about 139 mm. in width) were appreciably broader than
those of their predecessors."
So whether that Egyptian woman was of Semitic (or Hamitic) origin will
forever be unknown.
Dick Fischer, GPA president
Genesis Proclaimed Association
"Finding Harmony in Bible, Science and History" <>



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Received on Tue Dec 9 13:24:00 2008

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