Re: [asa] Divine action and QM--a major ID supporter weighs in--for Timaeus

From: dawson wayne <>
Date: Mon Dec 08 2008 - 10:19:38 EST


It was rather intentional. What I wrote was already far crossing the line
drawn in scripture, since no one should expect any appearance of angels were
they to try a stunt like that; though I confess that some of us have
been rescued from our own reckless stupidity at times and it seems fair
enough to acknowledge God's hand in those matters.

In fact, this raises an even further problem to the issue of trying to make
claims of science on how God works in the world. It is possible that you
might see an angel, maybe even interact with it, yet not observe it in
the "scientific" sense of the word "observe". If they don't show any sign
of interaction with electricity or magnetism or bombardment by light or
scattering from high energy particles, there is not much of a way
to "observe" them in a scientific sense. Even though the observer "saw"
them, if they are not extended, there is no procedure to measure them.
 Moreover, to prove the existence of angels, the angels should be willing to
appear before any observer. So Dawkins should be able to say some sort
incantation and have them appear at his very whim; which flies in the face
of scripture. I often wonder where such demands would stop, were even these

However, even if angels are in some way extended, they are still under the
command of God's will. I suppose if God willed them to appear, they would.
Perhaps on the judgement day, they will.
At any rate, at least if what we believe is true, that Christ died and was
resurrected, it seems that there are other forms of truth that need not
satisfy the "scientific truth" criteria, yet are still in fact true.

by Grace we proceed,
2008/12/7 D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>

> Wayne,
> I'm having a little trouble with your reference to angels. Every reference
> to angels in scripture has them visible in space and acting in
> space--speaking, setting fire to things, causing death, etc. But the
> medieval discussion made it clear that they were spirits and consequently
> not extended. This almost certainly makes them nonphysical, unless they are
> on a mission requiring visibility. The reference to the temptations
> specifically mention angels, but detection provides an apparent
> impossibility.
> Dave (ASA)

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Received on Mon Dec 8 10:20:03 2008

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