RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

From: Alexanian, Moorad <>
Date: Tue Oct 28 2008 - 12:54:13 EDT

Since you have already learned some physics, let us educate you in what geology is. According to Wikipedia,

"Geology (from Greek: ??, gê, "earth"; and ?????, logos <> , "speech" lit. to talk about the earth) is the science and study of the solid and liquid matter that constitute the Earth <> . The field of geology encompasses the study of the composition, structure, physical properties, dynamics, and history of Earth materials, and the processes by which they are formed, moved, and changed. The field is important in academics, industry (due to mineral and hydrocarbon extraction), and for social issues such as geotechnical engineering <> , the mitigation of natural hazards <> , and knowledge about past climate and climate change <> ."

Notice that geology is both an experimental science, e.g., "the science and study of the solid and liquid matter that constitute the Earth <> " and a historical science, e.g., "history of Earth materials."




From: Michael Roberts []
Sent: Tue 10/28/2008 12:05 PM
To: Alexanian, Moorad
Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs


We have disagreed many times. Usually it is over your view of historical
science which came over as a rejection of historical science eg geology and
strongly implied that you were YEC.

This is the best thing you have written on historical science, but it does
not recognise the observational aspects.

I am afraid I don't have time to join the group and need to write up several
papers. I cannot imagine what I wrote would be suitable:):)

I feel you have long shown a strong sympathy if not agreemenmnt with that
earth history site and you could have clarified things earlier.

I think we are approaching some mutual understanding.

Now as a non-physicist I have no problem with the Big Banger and the 13by
age of the universe, which I can hardly explain. However I know enough
physics to accept it is basically correct with a few issues under question.
On those I wait and see. clearly the geology I understand , but what about
you. How far do you accept the whole geological scenario over the last 4.5

I have also found some of your comments too enigmatic e.g. as below;
Everything has followed a continuous path from the very beginning and in
that sense; everything is of the same age and equally old. Without the next
sentence this is almost mystical

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <>
To: "Michael Roberts" <>; "Iain Strachan"
Cc: "John Burgeson (ASA member)" <>;
<>; "George Cooper" <>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 10:03 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

Dear Michael,

First, I want to apologize for my stern return of your comments. I love
justice and thought your comments were unjustly ascribing to me some
beliefs, which I do not have.

1) I have never rejected the findings of historical sciences. I have
tried to emphasize the difference between historical sciences and
experimental sciences. To me forensic science is a good prototype of a
historical science, which uses the findings of experimental sciences to
establish the truth or falsehood of assumed historical propositions.

2) Why don't you join the group and write some non-YEC articles.

3) Condemn me for being part of the website but please do not ascribe to
me what others write and post on it. I am part of this list and there are
views, which I do not consider valid, but I still choose to remain on the
list. As a physicist, I do not study the history of the earth. However, I
have published papers of the history of the early universe according to the
results of the Big Bang model of the creation of the universe.

I think is a bit boastful of you to know more about me than what I know of
myself. Please do not keep on guessing what I believe. I try to make a clear
distinction of what I know and what I do not know. Everything has followed a
continuous path from the very beginning and in that sense; everything is of
the same age and equally old. It is the formation or the birth of entities
that can be dated.

If the Lord Jesus the Christ came to earth and told you that He did create
the universe in seven days, how would you convince Him that He is wrong?

Physics deals with repeatable experiments and their generalizations into
laws. History and historical sciences deal with unique events. I hope we
all know that distinction.

Take care,



From: Michael Roberts []
Sent: Sun 10/26/2008 4:58 PM
To: Alexanian, Moorad; Iain Strachan
Cc: John Burgeson (ASA member);; George Cooper
Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs


Please correct me if I am wrong

1. You consistently reject historical science and do not accept the
conclusions of historical scientists like geologists

2. The earth history websites seems to have NO non-yec articles . It is 100%
YEC and you are part of it and have not criticised it in any way.

3. Their mission statement sounds good but even then all their articles are

Everything you have written supports my contention - unless you adopt a
view like the SDA which insists on flood geology reject all geology for 250
years (Perhaps I should do the same with physics)

Thus I suggest you are old universe and young earth, with recordable
geological activity only over the last 6000 years.

I wonder if you would convince Obama

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <>
To: "Iain Strachan" <>
Cc: "John Burgeson (ASA member)" <>;
<>; "George Cooper" <>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 1:38 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

I AM NOT A YEC. If you do not believe me, prove to me by reading everything
I have written and published that I am a YEC. I challenge you to do that. If
you cannot, please admit it to the list. Michael has not.

Now you raise the issue of homophobic and racist. Have you ever been
discriminated? Armenians know that as Christians by having been massacred by
the Ottoman Turks and having experienced strong discrimination wherever they
we have settled.

"Our own religion begins among the Jews, a people squeezed between great
warlike empires, continually defeated and led captive, familiar as Poland or
Armenia with the tragic story of the conquered." The Problem of Pain, C.S.
Lewis, p 16.



From: Iain Strachan []
Sent: Sun 10/26/2008 9:10 AM
To: Alexanian, Moorad
Cc: John Burgeson (ASA member);; George Cooper
Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

I can see that the smart thing to do is to add your name to my trash filter
immediately. I'm not prepared to listen to this kind of bait-and-switch
tactic. The issue was whether on not Obama is a Muslim, and you change the
subject to black liberation theology. This is typical of the way the worst
kind of YEC argues (and note in saying this I am NOT saying you are a YEC
... as you say you have not actually written anything that says you are a
YEC, though you haven't actually said either that you are not.

I have come to realise that the thing I abhor most in life is prejudice -
both racist and homophobic, because I know of the absolute misery it causes.

Consider yourself sent to Coventry.


On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Alexanian, Moorad <>

Let us stop this nonsense about Obama. You ask yourself how many years you
have gone to your church. In addition, how much do you know of what goes on
from the pulpit while you are not in church? Well Obama went to a church
for TWENTY YEARS and claims he did not know the sort of messages that were
delivered from the pulpit while he was not there. Would you yourself make
such a claim? Have you thought that perhaps his wife and children were
there while he was absent? Obama's church is based on black liberation
theology-"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and
Unapologetically Christian"

When I lived in Mexico City in the 70's, I was invited by a Christian
missionary friend of ours to attend a conference where many Christians from
different countries, especially Latin America, gave prepared speeches. There
was one from Cuba; BTW, I am Cuban by birth, who presented the Christian
faith as an appendix of Marxism. They emphasize the social aspect of the
Christian faith and totally forget the death and resurrection of Jesus---the
historical event that essentially defines the Christian faith. To the
amazement of my friend, I stood up and indicated that he was co-opting the
Christian faith for political reasons. I do not know what made me stand up
first and speak out, but I did. Let us not be fooled by mere sweet words.
You are supposed to be smart. Act accordingly.



From: Iain Strachan []

Sent: Sun 10/26/2008 8:13 AM
To: Alexanian, Moorad
Cc: John Burgeson (ASA member); George Cooper;

Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs


What Burgy wrote totally negates what you said. How can you possibly be so
dishonest?? Or do you only read the bits you want to hear and conveniently
ignore the rest?

You wrote:

Those who take Genesis literally ought to be the least of our worries. We
have a presidential candidate who professes to be a Christian, nonetheless,
he said in a TV interview, "My Muslim Faith." The anchor George
Stephanopoulos of ABC subsequently corrected him. I ask you, what Christian
would ever say that, even by mistake? Imagine the damage to the Christian
faith if such a person becomes president.

That is a disgraceful slander on Obama. A further Snopes web page

gives plenty of evidence of Obama's Christian faith - including pointing out
that sometime in the mid-80's he made a public profession of faith in a
church in response to an altar call.

The post Burgy sent also ended with Obama saying he finds it deeply
offensive the suggestions coming out of the republican camp that he is not a

I also find your post and rumour-mongering deeply offensive. Please either
retract them and admit that you were indulging in deeply un-christian
behaviour, or expect your name to be added to my trash filter so I don't
have to read any more of this offensive kind of stuff. You should be
ashamed of yourself - not least because your vicious and unfounded
speculations have nothing whatever to do with the dialogue between science
and Christianity, which is what this list is supposed to be about.


Non timeo sed caveo
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Received on Tue Oct 28 12:54:49 2008

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