RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs (Cheek turning)

From: James Patterson <>
Date: Mon Oct 27 2008 - 23:38:52 EDT

Interesting thread!


Dennis Venema [] wrote:


> It may be that forcing us to include vitamin C in our diet does make for

> healthier humans in general - but why then have the remains of a clearly

> once-functional gene for Vit C biosynthesis present in our genome?


Why not? What do you expect God to do with it...delete it, and put a "this
space intentionally left blank" sign? J


> If lack of Vit C synthesis is the goal, why not just exclude this enzyme
from the genome all together?


I believe that's what happened, functionally. Why do you thing the actual
gene has to be completely gone to prove God's existence or action? Why do
you insist on God's involvement being opaque to you, instead of transparent?
How can you determine whether this was a providential act of God, or a
supernatural act of God, given that?


> Why have evidence for a previously functional version (in the same genomic
area as in other mammals)?


Once again, why not? I don't think it is wrong to believe in the relatedness
of organisms. I think the genetic evidence is clear. I also believe that God
created man in his own image. That may very well be a spiritual only image.
However, it was by God's action that man was created.


Whether or not man was created:


a. Directly from the dust of the earth by special creative (supernatural)
works of God, 20K - 100K years ago

b. From special creative (supernatural) works of God on some poor
unsuspecting hominid (who was once dust), 20K - 100K years ago,

c. From (natural/providential) evolutionary processes working on the genome
of hominids, who evolved from X, who evolved from Y, back to when God first
(supernaturally) created life on this planet 3.9 BYA,


man was still created by God. As far as I can tell, it gets down to a
philosophical difference. TE's believe that God should not have to
"intervene" in what he set in motion to "fix" evolution - this gives the
impression that it was broken, and therefore God is not perfect. OEC's
believe that it's not "fixing" something broken, it is that God is actively
involved in our world (and our lives) pretty much all the time. And yet both
camps believe in both providence and the supernatural power of God, it's
just a question of how much of which! I think the distinction is artificial
at some level. When I was in the TE camp, I always used the phrase "stirring
the pot". I think it fits.


So I ask the question here, that I asked in another thread.


What is perfection, in the context of an evolving creation? Why is it that
some cannot see (or refuse to admit) the gaping holes in evolutionary
theory, that are glaringly obvious to others? I have a BS in Biology, it was
my major...and I was TE for years. I see and admit that the OEC model has
flaws. All models do. In my opinion, it is the better model...better than
TE. I admit that CD is a strong argument for TE, but it is by *no* means the
critical issue that some make it out to be. I think we are related to
chimps. And dogs. And dandelions, and bacteria. I don't have a problem with
that, and I know that some OEC (and especially YEC) folks do. I just do not
see the continuity of the data, from point A (LUCA) to point Z (man).


God created the heavens and the earth. First miracle.


There is no LUCA, there was no pre-biotic soup (Schidlowski, 1988), there
wasn't enough time or the right stuff for life to evolve. God created life.
Second miracle.


God (somehow) created man. Third miracle.


God did all the other miracles in the Bible. Including those real important
ones, the virgin birth, and the resurrection of Christ. Forth and fifth


There. You don't have to believe in any other miracles for the moment. Just
leave it at that. You can even argue about abiogenesis if you insist on "we
don't know what happened". We still have miracles. They've happened. And so
why do you insist on *further* restricting God's miraculous involvement, if
you already believe in the supernatural power of God?


If you don't see the handiwork of God in nature, then I worry that you are
choosing not to see it. And if you are choosing not to see it, I worry that
you are denying God.


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Received on Mon Oct 27 23:39:35 2008

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