Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

From: Michael Roberts <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>
Date: Sat Oct 25 2008 - 10:24:33 EDT

And this from the site? Somuch for the mission statement
The Bible and Paleontology

2005 Arthur V. Chadwick, Ph.D.

My Perspective. When dealing with a topic subject to as much controversy and
interpretation as is this, I think it is appropriate for me to set forth my
own presuppositions at the outset. This I will briefly do. While in college,
I became convinced of my need of Christ, and committed my life to him,
joining the Seventh-day Adventist fellowship because of my desire to follow
Truth wherever it led. It seemed very clear to me at that time, and remains
so to this day, that the Bible was intentionally teaching us lessons that we
could not learn on our own. While I believed rational processes were
essential to the establishment of a life philosophy, I recognized they would
not be sufficient.

Belief in a literal Divine Creation event in the recent past is a given part
of my philosophy. I do not need scientific evidence to support that
position, but expect that, rightly understood, all scientific data will
ultimately make sense within that framework. Thus, it is not my goal in
doing science, to "prove" there was a global flood, or that creation was a
literal event a few thousand years in the past. These are givens. Rather I
expect that, taking advantage of these unique perspectives on science, I and
others so equipped, will be advantaged in the insights we may have when
viewing problems in the arena of science.

There are many unanswered questions about what, how and when in the natural
world. For scientists, having more questions than answers is not an
unpleasant position to occupy. After all, science is about answering
questions from the natural world, and what could be better than to be
surrounded by unanswered and challenging questions. I also understand that
not everyone shares this perspective. In the paper that follows, I will
attempt to lay out some of what we do know, what we can know, what we do not
know, and perhaps what we cannot know from the Bible and Paleontology, about
the history of life on the earth.

One of the unique areas to explore would be to direct efforts toward
constructing a model of the preflood world based upon what is known from
Scripture and from the best efforts to interpret the natural world in
harmony with Scripture. The effort required for such a project to be viable
is staggering. Some of us have only just now begun to probe the Cambrian,
with the view of understanding what was probably the beginning of the Flood
of Genesis. We are using patterns of sedimentary deposits to discriminate
potential source areas for sediment and fossils, the pattern of fossil
distributions to attempt to reconstruct the kind or number of habitats, and
paleocurrent data to attempt to reconstruct flow patterns and to help trace
backwards to source areas. It is apparent that such a monumental undertaking
can only succeed as a well-funded joint effort among as many well-trained,
dedicated individuals as possible. Of course the goal would be to better
understand the circumstances that gave rise to the fossil record, and to be
able to explain some of the details hard to understand. Before we decide
such an effort is or is not necessary or important, let us review the other
aspect of this presentation, paleontology.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
To: "Iain Strachan" <igd.strachan@gmail.com>
Cc: "Michael Roberts" <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:09 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

My post is commensurate to the insults I received. For your info, read the
following, which I ascribe to and to no more. In fact, I am not a
Seventh-day Adventist but an Apostolic Armenian,

http://origins.swau.edu/mission/default.html
<http://origins.swau.edu/mission/default.html>

Our Mission Statement

The Earth History Research Center is a non-profit, non-sectarian
organization of active scientists. Our mission is to develop a
scientifically credible view of earth history consistent with scripture, to
conduct scientific research related to this goal and to promote our view
through publication and education.

Please, tell me where you see anything about the age of the earth or
universe in that mission statement.

Moorad

________________________________

From: Iain Strachan [mailto:igd.strachan@gmail.com]
Sent: Sat 10/25/2008 8:16 AM
To: Alexanian, Moorad
Cc: Michael Roberts; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs

How ironic that not two hours after I posted a comment about the
unhelpful nature of "ad hominem" attacks, that you should post one of
the worst and most insulting ones I have ever seen. Boasting about
the length of your publication list and accusing your opponent of
being a "two-bit" scientist doesn't match up to my idea of a civilised
debate.

And despite your protestations of how distinguished a physicist you
are (I don't doubt that), it would certainly appear that the Earth
History Research Center is advocating a YEC position.

Iain

On Sat, Oct 25, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Alexanian, Moorad <alexanian@uncw.edu>
wrote:
> If you are not feeble-minded, would you kindly read the papers that appear
> in my CV http://origins.swau.edu/who/moorad/cmoorad98.html
> <http://origins.swau.edu/who/moorad/cmoorad98.html> . After you do that,
> you will have to shut your face and prove that you are nothing perhaps but
> a two-bit scientist, if not a two-bit charlatan.
>
>
> Moorad
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Michael Roberts [mailto:michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk]
> Sent: Sat 10/25/2008 3:03 AM
> To: Alexanian, Moorad; asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>
>
>
> I refer to the website of the Earth History Research Center.
>
> I rest my case
>
> Michael
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
> To: "Michael Roberts" <michael.andrea.r@ukonline.co.uk>; "George Cooper"
> <georgecooper@sbcglobal.net>; <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:54 PM
> Subject: RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>
>
> Michael, show me anything I have written or said that agrees with your
> statement that I am a YEC. You will find none. That is your problem; you
> assume erroneously and so conclude foolishly.
>
>
>
> Moorad
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Michael Roberts
> Sent: Fri 10/24/2008 6:23 PM
> To: George Cooper; asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: Re: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>
>
>
> As Moorad is a YEc he is hardly liable to see YEC as a stumbling block -
> which of course it is.
>
> I like your land of Silly but the main road out leads to the slough of
> despond (and doubt)
>
> Michael
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Cooper" <georgecooper@sbcglobal.net>
> To: <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 11:07 PM
> Subject: RE: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>
>
>> Moorad said," I am not sure what are you trying to convince this
>> gentleman
>> of. Is there an obstacle for this gentleman to seek God's kingdom and His
>> righteousness, which you are trying to remove?"
>>
>> Your focus is wise, but I struggle with this issue.
>>
>> In this case, it seems that Dennis' friends are the ones trying to
>> convince
>> him, since he said he is the rod (not the lightning). Yes, there is an
>> obstacle. The issue is not some sidebar to the Roman Road, such as the
>> age
>> of the Earth, it is how far Christians (mostly "good" ones, too) are
>> willing
>> to push the Bible into the land of Silly. The sillier people make
>> Genesis
>> look, the sillier the Bible looks, and the sillier our faith appears to
>> unbelievers. If the Bible is unreasonable or irrational, then we have a
>> problem.
>>
>> "Coope"
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Dennis Venema
>> Sent: Fri 10/24/2008 5:00 PM
>> To: asa@calvin.edu
>> Subject: [asa] Advice for conversing with YECs
>>
>>
>> I seem to be something of a lightning rod for YECs in my local church
>> sphere. At present I am discussing these issues with a gentleman from my
>> congregation, but I am not making much progress in having him try to
>> understand my point of view. We can't even get past the age-of-the-earth
>> issue. He is not interested in looking at any evidence, either.
>>
>> I am interested in what advice folks might have - I am especially
>> interested
>> in hearing from those of you who used to be YECs but now accept an old
>> earth. What was useful to you as you made the transition?
>>
>> Thanks, all.
>>
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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Received on Sat Oct 25 10:25:16 2008

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