RE: [asa] Rejoinder 4D from Timaeus

From: Jon Tandy <>
Date: Wed Oct 15 2008 - 09:53:10 EDT

Okay, so now I'm feeling a little left out of the discussion with Timaeus. I sent two main replies (9/29 and 10/1), with a couple of shorter ones on 9/29 and 10/2, that didn't receive replies as far as I can see. It may be that some of these points have been partially addressed in responses to others, but several were not.

I would still be very interested in having Timaeus respond to some of my main questions, which are summarized here (but see the original e-mails for the substance of my comments/questions):

1) I see Timaeus as equivocating on the definition of Darwinism (is it a scientific, or a scientific/theological position), which leads to the next concern,
2) ID claims to be interested in scientific (not theological) discussion, but inherently brings theology in by holding an underlying theological definition of Darwinism
3) the vacuity of their anti-TE claims when the two parts of their "anti-Darwinism" (scientific and theological) are considered separately
4) the question about what scientific value ID has beyond anti-Darwinism; what does their approach add to the field of scientific inquiry besides critiquing the efficacy of "neo-Darwinian mechanisms" to account for the diversity of life?
5) what should science's response be toward ID's claims (give up the search for natural mechanisms, or continue searching and possibly finding explainable natural mechanisms), and what is ID's response when natural mechanisms are found (deny, accept, and if they would accept the natural explanation in place of the previously claimed "design" argument then isn't this a "God of the gaps" argument? And if their acceptance is based on a "both" rather than "either-or" explanation, how is this any different from the position that most TE's would have held all along?)
6) the presumptuousness in ID appearing to claim victory for design based on Behe's and Denton's claims that have come only recently in the grand scheme of scientific progress, where much research has already been done and much has yet to be done to answer their claims.

I hope he will respond, even though I'm not necessarily one of the "Theistic Evolutionists" that he came here to take up the battle with. I think my present beliefs may lie somewhere at the intersection of ID and TE that is in fact part of the field of common ground that he started out claiming to seek at ASA, even if I don't like either category (or extreme varieties of either theory) as necessarily representative of my views. Ted, if Timaeus doesn't receive these ASA e-mails directly, could you inquire whether he has the time and interest in responding to these questions? I am very interested in seeing some of these questions fleshed out and discussed.

Jon Tandy

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Received on Wed Oct 15 09:53:48 2008

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