Re: [asa] meteorites in the geologic column

From: Jim Armstrong <jarmstro@qwest.net>
Date: Mon Sep 22 2008 - 11:29:19 EDT
Just to briefly wave a flag on a prior theme, I think the back and forth technical and logical arguments among those who are inclined to do so are certainly beneficial to those with the preparation to engage and understand them. However, the largest audience disposed toward YEC positions do so pretty much by default, and without technical or critical preparation. The arguments that speak to them are more about plausibility and fit with their  existing world view than about technical argument (which they are unprepared to assess) or logic (which quickly loses them and is easily overridden by passion).

If the goal is to push back effectively against the popular trend toward YEC leanings, then a different type of "campaign" would seem to be called for, one that is based on plausibility arguments that portray in fairly non-technical, but very descriptive terms alternate ways of understanding and appreciating that which has constantly and widely misportrayed as being in total conflict with a creative "designing" Creator.

I would think that the object would not be to tear down the usual arguments through confrontation (though there is that place for this), but to put in place a carefully crafted, informative, accessible and appropriately reverential story line embodying the alternative creation "story", one which gently and non-confrontationally conveys the awe and fascination that so many of us experience.

I'm inclined to think that the perceptual difference between these two audiences might require a collaboration between a talented writer/illustrator who is not a technical person, and someone who can lovingly describe the alternate story line with technical accuracy. Most of us would be unable to cross the bridge back to the level of naivete (I do not mean this in a deprecating way) that is required to speak effectively to this audience.

I'm sure that such materials already exist in some forms, and specific resources of this sort have been mentioned from time to time, but perhaps we need more, MORE of them?! ...and more paths and modes for distributing them [e.g., YouTube, targeted free distribution (under sponsorship, of course), etc.]?

That might be an alternative place to fruitfully spend some time, for those with an appropriate skill set and interest (and network!).

Or so it seemeth to me!   JimA [Friend of ASA]


Michael Roberts wrote:
What else could one do with the time spent on this type of thing?
 
How many man/woman hours are spent in refuting YEC?
 
What I have always found is that if a YEC argument is presented as plausible, research ALWAYS finds it wanting.  That can take a long time.
 
It also undermines whatever else John Macarthur does. Surely he should check out the science given to him as well as studying the bible etc?
 
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Isaac
To: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] meteorites in the geologic column

Very helpful, George. Thank you.
A summary of what I learned is:
 
1. Most meteors disintegrate in the atmosphere--the ones that survive to hit the ground are usually iron or iron-rich, though a few stony ones also survive.
2. The iron-rich meteorites quickly rust away, generally in a few dozen years, unless they land in a desert or in ice.
3. A few rare stony meteorites have been found that were "fossilized" in the sense of the minerals having been replaced by terrestrial minerals but the shell still intact and discernible. Two of them date to 450 and 480 million years. Very rare.
4. The oldest intact meteorite is the one you point out that was found in Oklahoma and is 110 million years
5. Looking for remnants of meteorites is indeed like the proverbial needle in a haystack: "every million short tons of coal should yield about 300 grams of recoverable magnetic macro-meteorites". Isn't that at or below the ppb range?
 
Net: not a very good way to determine the age of the earth.
 
Randy
----- Original Message -----
From: George Cooper
To: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 8:44 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] meteorites in the geologic column

[I see my rushed response didn’t answer your question.  Sorry.]

 

Here is a paper addressing meteorites found within the Ordovician strata in Sweeden:  

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1996E&PSL.145...31S

 

This site gives further information:

http://www.meteorite.fr/en/basics/charts.htm

 

The oldest intact meteorite [based on time on Earth] is the Lake Murray iron. A single mass with a thick iron-shale was found in a gully in Oklahoma, USA, in 1933. The meteorite was imbedded in some Antler Sandstone dating from the Lower Cretaceous, suggesting that Lake Murray landed in a near-shore, shallow sea, while these beds were being deposited about 110 million years ago.”

 

“Most meteorites weather away quite quickly in the oxidizing environment of the Earth, while some meteorites may literally be observed as they rust away. However, other meteorites fell at more fortuitous locations and were preserved until this day, e.g. in the ice fields of Antarctica and in the hot deserts of Africa. Some of them have been preserved for as long as 40,000 years or more. Indeed, there are some meteorites found to be much older still - those that have been preserved in sediments or in other geologic strata conducive to preservation, often referred to as "fossil meteorites".”

 

[I respect John McArthur on other things.]

 

“Coope”

 

 

 

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Randy Isaac
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 2:47 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: [asa] meteorites in the geologic column

 

This morning as I was scanning radio stations in the car, I came across John MacArthur's "Grace to You" program.

Since Sept. 8 he has been doing a series on creation and today he was talking about Day 3. No, I haven't gone back to listen to all those segments. Reading the blurbs is enough of an indication of his message.

 

Today he brought up a YEC claim that I hadn't investigated myself and I wondered if any of you had. His point was that if the meteor flux was essentially constant over the geologic periods, then meteorites should be found throughout the historical sedimentary rocks. Yet, he says, no meteorites have ever been found other than at the surface. Hence, there was no extended age of the universe prior to the flood when all the sedimentary rock was deposited.

 

What is the actual distribution of meteorites with respect to location in the strata?

 

Randy

 

 

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