RE: [asa] (fall) biological evolution and a literal Adam- logically inconsistent?

From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Date: Wed Sep 03 2008 - 19:01:09 EDT

Yes, there's no cars in the story of Genesis.

There's nothing in the Bible about alligators, lions, saber-tooth tigers, and T. Rex being vegetarians, but those who believe there was no animal death before "the fall" believe it, I guess. Notice the teeth T.Rex had for cutting meat, not eating vegetation... did they change after the fall? Any fossils to confirm that?

What if T.Rex went running through the forest or one of those multi-ton dino's and they accidentally stepped on Adam? Either God would prevent it (some sort of force-field), or else Adam wouldn't get squished because he has a special body that could take it. I guess "the special body" option, because their bodies were special in that they didn't die until the fall.

Merv said:
"Of course, the evil would be in Adam's decision to be making death-defying dives more than in the continued action of gravity & nature after he has jumped."

It wouldn't be "death-defying" if death wasn't yet a possibility for him. It could be some sort of amusement, to see who could bounce the highest. ;-)

...Bernie

________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Merv
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:52 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] (fall) biological evolution and a literal Adam- logically inconsistent?

Of course, the evil would be in Adam's decision to be making death-defying dives more than in the continued action of gravity & nature after he has jumped.

The car crash is interesting, though. We choose to embrace a technology to take us at death defying speeds across pavement because we like to get places fast and without much effort. What civilization of idiots would ever expect that nothing bad ever results from that? I think the harder ones to answer are the hurricanes & volcanoes which aren't at all traceable back to human action, and as Keith said, contribute as part of a cycle that enables later life. (Although --even in those cases; when we have class structures and internationally extreme inequities in which certain populations can only afford to live in harms way --then of course tsunamis and hurricanes exact high tolls. So even there, it's hard to point the finger at God without seeing a finger pointing back.)

The evolutionary creationist, I suppose, would see evil more in our manner of willful participation that leads to death & suffering more than in the mere facts of physical death & pain which, according to evolutionary thought existed independently (in a physical sense) before human responsibility.

--Merv

George Cooper wrote:

Bernie,

I agree with your natural evil view.

As for accidental death by auto...that would explain why there were no cars

in the Garden.

I think the opportunity for death would be averted by intervention by either

"natural good" or by divine hand, both preventing death.

Coope

-----Original Message-----

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On

Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie

Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 4:47 PM

To: AmericanScientificAffiliation Affiliation

Subject: RE: [asa] (fall) biological evolution and a literal Adam- logically

inconsistent?

Another natural evil example is if your tire blows out and the car crashes

killing everyone in the car. Was the fall responsible for that? If ones

says yes, then it seems like if there was no fall, there would be no death.

In that case, Adam could have climbed the tallest tree, dived into a rock

(headfirst), and wouldn't have died... probably not even a bruise?

...Bernie

-----Original Message-----

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On

Behalf Of Keith Miller

Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 2:33 PM

To: AmericanScientificAffiliation Affiliation

Subject: Re: [asa] (fall) biological evolution and a literal Adam- logically

inconsistent?

Randy posted the following quote from Bube:

"It is precisely in Genesis 1-3 that the Christian finds the

biblical basis for this approach to evil. One of the basic

revelations given to us in these chapters is the emphasis upon the

goodness of God's creation. The creation "as it comes from the hand

of God" is good and free from evil. The evil that we see around us,

real moral or natural evil, is due to man's sin or to natural

causes, and is not intrinsic in the creation purpose of God. Unlike

many other major religions, Christianity rejects the concept that

evil finds its ultimate cause in matter, finiteness, or in

individuality. It is not intrinsically necessary for matter,

finiteness or individuality to result in moral and natural evil.

The biblical record tells us that the evil around us is something

outside of, contrary to, different from, and an aberration on that

kind of world which would correspond to the creation purpose of God.

While I fully accept that "the creation 'as it comes from the hand of

God' is good and free from evil", I have a problem with the inclusion

of "natural evil" in the statement above. The implication is that

"natural evil" is somehow independent of God's creative activity.

Events such as hurricanes, floods, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions,

etc are part of the dynamic processes through which God is

continually active in the creation. They are part of the creative

processes that have made the life-sustaining creation that God

declared good. Similarly the cycle of life and death that is part

and parcel of the web of life on Earth is essential for the

sustaining of that life. That cycle of life and death is also

explicitly a part of God's upholding of creation (see Psalm 104).

Keith

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Received on Wed Sep 3 19:01:54 2008

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