RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme (evolving society)

From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Date: Wed Jul 30 2008 - 16:07:14 EDT

Gregory wrote:
"Society doesn't 'evolve,' Bernie. Who told you (i.e. who that KNOWS, not who that guesses) that it does?"

I told myself.

Let's talk examples. Give me an example of some society behavior that didn't evolve. Please be specific.

...Bernie

________________________________
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Gregory Arago
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:29 AM
To: Dehler, Bernie
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme

Burgy and Bernie,

Wake up and read a bit outside of your home turf. You're quacking like ducks!

'Meme,' o.k. let's rewrite it. ME-ME. Not YOU-YOU! Do you want to use that 'selfish gene' centric product of R. Dawkins in your vocabularies? If so, it's all about survival (reproductive fitness, to be more precise), nothing more. Get with the program!

Defend it and Ħturn it into˘ your own meaning, you'll be doing a disservice as great as those who would pull the poison out of evolution by claiming it can be a 'completely theistic variety.' Are they serious? They don't own the discourse, but want to change people's vocabularies so that 'evolution' is GUIDED - who or what is doing that 'guidance' and why hasn˘t caught on in the mainstream of evolutionary biologists. Why are there guidance-ologists in biology?

Society doesn't 'evolve,' Bernie. Who told you (i.e. who that KNOWS, not who that guesses) that it does? Talcott Parsons, Robert Merton...exactly who? Please do tell! I am a sociologist and I am telling you that yes, of course, society 'changes-over-time,' but that no, it doesn't 'evolve.' A significant difference there, even if it˘s Ħmere word-play˘ to you. It is not being 'afraid' of a word, but exercising discernment of where a particular word fits and where it doesn't to best express the thought one wants to express.

'Meme' is condescending conceptology (R.D. needed 'a word to rhyme with gene'!!!) - any who are tricked into playing his game should step back, examine their reasons and if necessary open a book or 500 in the fields where R.D.'s theory INTRUDES, i.e. in the human-social sciences. We don't want him there, yet this attitude of 'it might be o.k. to refer to 'non-scientific' things like ideas' is disgusting. There are better ways to speak about the Ħtransfer of ideas˘ than to lean on Blackmore, Dawkins, Dennett, M. Harris (cultural materialism), Sanderson, et al. I'm surprised you haven't found the resources yet to enable you to do this. Perhaps ASA could put something about Me-Me's on its education section (Craig Rusbult)?

Yes, Mike Gene, that is exactly the point - a "whole new field of pseudo-science has been inspired by R.D.," though I wouldn't dignify Me-Me-tics as a 'field' - that sounds far too rigorous and disciplined! :0)

Gregory

--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com> wrote:
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Subject: RE: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme
To:
Cc: "asa@calvin.edu" <asa@calvin.edu>
Received: Wednesday, July 30, 2008, 7:50 PM

Burgy said:

" The word "meme" seems to have value as descriptive of

something real. The fact that Dawkins invented it does not make it of

no value."

I agree Burgy. "Meme" may be controversial, but the fact that

society learns and evolves seems to be agreed by all. Some are afraid of the

word because Dawkins says that memes are responsible for religion and inventing

God... going too far.

,,,Bernie

-----Original Message-----

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf

Of j burg

Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:21 AM

To: Nucacids

Cc: asa@calvin.edu

Subject: Re: [asa] The Science = Atheism Meme

I am puzzled. The word "meme" seems to have value as descriptive of

something real. The fact that Dawkins invented it does not make it of

no value.

Or amybe the argument is that "meme" does not refer to something

real.

Of course it is not real in the sense of a physical thing. But it

seems (to me) to be real in the sense of a concept/influence or

whatever. As such, it is a useful term; I'm not sure what to use in

its place to refer to what dawkins is writing about..

Burgy

On 7/30/08, Nucacids <nucacids@wowway.com> wrote:

> Hi PvM,

>

>

>

> "The confusion that science is atheism is unfortunate but not

surprising

> given the state of education and religious indoctrination in this

country."

>

>

>

> Indeed. And what also adds to the confusion is the manner in which vocal,

> atheistic scientists preach about science leading to atheism. Ken Miller

> nicely explained this in his first book, Finding Darwin's God.

>

>

>

> "However, we should not oversimplify the issue as science is atheism,

and

> certainly not by pointing at an atheist who also happens to be a

scientist.

> Of course, for some, the idea that science is atheism is comforting."

>

>

>

> I'm not oversimplifying any issue when I note that Myers publicity

stunt has

> worked to entrench the confusion. Thanks to Myers, thousands of Catholics

> now know one thing - the man who deceptively obtained a Eucharist wafer in

> order to publicly desecrate it is a scientist who hosts the #1

"science

> blog." Are you under the impression that Myers stunt has helped

people to

> see the error in the science=atheism equation?

>

>

>

> - Mike

>

>

> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with

> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

>

--
Burgy
www.burgy.50megs.com
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Received on Wed Jul 30 16:07:59 2008

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