Re: [asa] Suffering/Predation in the natural order

From: George Murphy <GMURPHY10@neo.rr.com>
Date: Thu Jul 10 2008 - 14:22:43 EDT

I suggest that all who talk so easily about a primordial fall of Satan try to find just where in the Bible that's spoken of. To save some time, Isaiah 14:12-15 is a Canaanite myth used used to speak of the fall of Babylonian & similarly Ezekiel 28:11-19 is a mythic description of primordial man used to prophesy the fall of the prince of Tyre. The biblical writers themselves demythologized these stories & used them to speak of historical events, & it has been a mistake for Christians to remythologize them as accounts of a prehistorical fall of Satan.OTOH Luke 10:18 & Revelation 12:7-9 do speak of a fall of Satan but treat it as something contemporary with Jesus &/or the early church. Furthermore, Job.1-2 pictures Satan as being in heaven not as a fallen creature but as God's overzealous prosecuting attorney.

None of which is to say that the idea of a primordial fall of angelic beings is without value. It has certainly been widely held in the Christian tradition (though Barth, e.g., rejected the idea that the demonic is to be understood in that way.) But to speak of it as if it were an essential Christian doctrine firmly based on scripture is just wrong.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: drsyme@cablespeed.com
  To: 'Bethany Sollereder' ; 'gordon brown' ; 'Alexanian@calvin.edu ; Moorad'
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:04 PM
  Subject: RE: [asa] Suffering/Predation in the natural order

  Satan fell yes, but what exactly did that do to creation? I think your response to Bethany should have been that "original creation" was that time before the fall of man. I do not mean to say that the fall of man had any significant effect on creation, but that sin didnt exist before there was a free moral agent, as you alluded too. Because of sin we are now seperated from God, and suffering is now a part of our existence, i.e. the "consequences" from breaking the laws.

  On Thu Jul 10 13:01 , "Alexanian, Moorad" sent:

    According to Scripture, there was Satan and his fall. When that was and how if affected what happened subsequently I do not know. Perhaps experts in Scripture can fill us in.

    Moorad

    ________________________________

    From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Bethany Sollereder
    Sent: Thu 7/10/2008 11:30 AM
    To: gordon brown
    Cc: asa@calvin.edu
    Subject: Re: [asa] Suffering/Predation in the natural order

    Moorad,

    What do you mean by "original creation"? Historically there has never been a time when death was not in the picture. There was no Eden. So unless you want to do some "fall of the angels thing" before the earth was formed, you can't back up a cosmic fall.

    Bethany

    On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:20 AM, gordon brown <Gordon.Brown@colorado.edu> wrote:

    On Thu, 10 Jul 2008, Alexanian, Moorad wrote:

    Perhaps the original creation was heaven indeed. However, beings with free will were part of it and were no mere automatons. Of course, laws must be part of the original creation and the free agents broke the laws that carried corresponding consequences. The latter may be what we now observe and experience. Is that what the Scripture is actually telling us?

    Moorad,

    If the original creation was heaven indeed, your description makes it sound a lot less inviting.

    Gordon Brown (ASA member)

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Received on Thu Jul 10 14:26:05 2008

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