Re: [asa] Proof of the YEC position

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
Date: Sun Jul 06 2008 - 01:31:06 EDT

Fact 1: human beings are finite.
Fact 2: the basis of our positive relationship with God is faith.
Fact 3: science is based on trust of matters that cannot be demonstrated
scientifically.
I merely applied these, but you didn't get it.
Dave (ASA)

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 14:34:25 -0700 Edward Hassertt <tacomalaw@gmail.com>
writes:
> By what you say it makes most of the polemical statements against YEC
>
> and ID positions ridiculous!
>
> You attack others for saying exactly what you say here! I am trying
> to
> point out the obvious inconsistencies of the claims of scientists on
>
> this list.
>
> If science cannot discover that there was a creator who sustains his
>
> creation, how can the layman know that science is accurate in its
> description of things of which it only is capable of collecting
> partial
> knowledge. Is part of the data set sufficient to draw conclusions
> about
> the nature of things like evolution, or should we just admit science
> can
> explain what and how things work but really cannot explain where
> things
> come from.
>
> If God used supernatural events in the evolutionary process, and as
> you
> say science cannot discover the supernatural, then science would
> never
> be able to find the truth about evolution.
>
> D. F. Siemens, Jr. wrote:
> > Your first partial sentence is inadequate. What you are presumably
> > claiming is that evidence for design by superhuman entities does
> not yet
> > exist, for there is abundant evidence of human design that goes
> back for
> > thousands of years. If you do not want to acknowledge that the
> search is
> > for superhuman entities, then one may substitute nonhuman
> nonterrestrial
> > entities. However, even this modification is inadequate, for the
> argument
> > involves scientific evidence for superhuman or external design.
> There are
> > plenty of theological and philosophical arguments for a Designer,
> but
> > they are not scientific. As a consequence, they do not meet the
> > requirements set out by proponents of Intelligent Design. They
> only
> > indicate intelligent design, which fits the notion of a Creator,
> who is
> > not discoverable within science. Put bluntly, you can't put God in
> a test
> > tube.
> >
> > The second alternative, "Science is inadequate at discovering the
> true
> > nature of reality," is clearly true. Science discovers the
> empirical
> > relationships, but philosophy tackles reality insofar as human
> beings can
> > understand it. However, philosophers do not have the
> straightforward test
> > of science available to them. As a consequence, materialism and
> theism
> > are both possible metaphysically, though they contradict each
> other. They
> > can't both be true, but neither can be proved.
> >
> > Your argument reminded me of one I encountered many years ago.
> > All men are sinners.
> > All sinners go to hell.
> > Therefore, all men go to hell.
> > It's valid, but you expect to go to heaven. Why?
> > Dave (ASA)
> >
> > On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:29:51 -0700 "Edward J. Hassertt J.D."
> > <ehassertt@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> Evidence for design as yet does not exist, but as Christians we
> must
> >> either
> >> assume
> >>
> >> 1) Evidence for design will eventually be found
> >> 2) Science is inadequate at discovering the true nature of
> reality,
> >> or_
> >> 3) There is no designer and Christians are wrong about the
> >> existence of God
> >>
> >> Which of these would you agree to be true?
> >>
> >> If science rules out the possibility of design a priori, it is no
>
> >> longer
> >> science, but dogma.
> >>
> >> If on the other hand science rules out the possibility of not
> >> finding a
> >> designer, it too is no longer science by dogma.
> >>
> >> Both sides of this issue seem to be setting aside science for
> dogma.
> >>
> >> If science is accurate, capable, and working under the right
> >> assumptions,
> >> then it will eventually discover evidence of a designer if one
> >> exists.
> >>
> >> If a designer exists and science cannot discover that, then
> science
> >> is
> >> incapable of truly discovering an accurate telling of reality. It
>
> >> ends up
> >> being pragmatic instead of truth-discovering.
> >>
> >> If science if incapable of discovering a designer when one does
> >> exist, then
> >> why should we trust the other pronouncements of science as true?
> If
> >> it is
> >> incapable of discovering the true nature of reality, which all we
> as
> >> Christians know to be true, then what makes us layman able to
> trust
> >> its
> >> other claims about the nature of reality?
> >>
> >> If I look at a claim of truth in which the underlying assumptions
>
> >> are that
> >> the method used to discover that truth cannot find the truth of
> the
> >> system
> >> it studies, then there is no reason to trust that claim of truth.
> >>
> >> If I were to tell you the cube inside the box on my table is
> purple
> >> because
> >> I put a purple cube in the box. Then I tell you I am color
> blind.
> >> Do you
> >> trust my claim about the color of the cube? Likewise if science
> >> tells us
> >> there is no evidence of design and then tells us it is incapable
> of
> >> iscovering evidence of design because of its nature, why would I
> >> trust that
> >> pronouncement.
> >>
> >> So that brings me back to my three options above. If there is a
> >> different
> >> option I am missing please let me know.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Edward J. Hassertt, J.D.
> >> President
> >> H & H Insurance & Financial Services
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> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
> [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]
> >> On
> >> Behalf Of PvM
> >> Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 11:14 AM
> >> To: gordon brown
> >> Cc: asa@calvin.edu
> >> Subject: Re: [asa] Proof of the YEC position
> >>
> >> But ID is taking the damage of YEC into the mainstream by
> providing
> >> the faithful with an impression that real scientific evidence for
> >> design exists. One need but look around the country and see the
> >> foolishness extend from Dover, to Louisiana to the inevitable
> Texas
> >> department of education's undermining of science.
> >>
> >> ID has brought the destructive powers of YEC to the mainstream,
> >> dragging down science education as well as religious faith while
> >> looking foolish throughout the process.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 8:22 AM, gordon brown
> >> <Gordon.Brown@colorado.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008, PvM wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> ID and YEC are doing quite a bit of damage to Christian
> >>>>
> >> credibility,
> >>
> >>>> something some atheists could only dream about doing themselves.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> How much damage to Christian credibility has ID done that YEC
> >>>
> >> hadn't
> >> already
> >>
> >>> done?
> >>>
> >>> Maybe since so many people don't know the difference between ID
> >>>
> >> and YEC,
> >> ID
> >>
> >>> in the news may reinforce the negative impact of YEC. Also ID
> may
> >>>
> >> raise
> >>
> >>> false expectations for Christians who want it to stamp out
> >>>
> >> evolutionism.
> >>
> >>> However these effects pale in comparison with the damage that
> YEC
> >>>
> >> has
> >> done.
> >>
> >>> Gordon Brown (ASA member)
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> >> "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >
>
>
> --
> We stand before these terrifying possibilities - to let go of our
> security, to open ourselves to the frightening possibility of
> success,
> to leave all that is familiar and safe for an unknown world. But
> then we
> notice standing beside us is Jesus. - Michael Card
>
.........................................................................
......................
> Dr. Edward J Hassertt
> Redmond, Washington
>
>
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Received on Sun Jul 6 01:33:40 2008

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