RE: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)

From: Dick Fischer <dickfischer@verizon.net>
Date: Tue Jul 01 2008 - 20:07:40 EDT

Just a point of clarification. You quoted: "Utnapishtim, sometimes
called the "Sumerian Noah ..." Actually, the Eleventh Tablet of
Gilgamesh is the only tablet in the "canon of Gilgamesh" written in
Akkadian, not Sumerian. I believe it is quite likely that an Akkadian
scribe put together the two icons of their time into one story of the
flood. Remember, Akkadians are Semites and Noah, of course, is their
patriarch. Atrahasis is also in Akkadian and the only Sumerian flood
story, Ziusudra, is a translation of Atrahasis.
 
The Sumerians were decimated by the flood but survived as a culture
because they were located further east and some sought refuge in the
Zagros foothills.
 
Dick Fischer, author, lecturer
Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham
www.historicalgenesis.com <http://www.historicalgenesis.com/>
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Alexanian, Moorad
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 12:45 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)
 
I found the following, which may be of interest. Moorad
 
http://rbedrosian.com/Memyth.htm
 
In the view of several scholars, Mashu is also the mountain mentioned in
the story that Utnapishtim told Gilgamesh. [18] Utnapishtim, sometimes
called the "Sumerian Noah", told Gilgamesh how the gods had become
angered with humanity and decided on the Flood as one means to
exterminate it. A sympathetic god warned Utnapishtim and told him to
build a boat and board it with his family, relatives, craftsmen, and the
seed of all living creatures (71). After six days of tempest and flood,
Utnapishtim's boat grounded on a mountain. He released a dove and a
swallow, both of which returned to him. Then he released a raven which
did not return; Utnapishtim and his family came down from the mountain.
When the disgruntled gods are finally reconciled with the re-emergence
of humanity, Utnapishtim and his wife are taken by the god Enlil to live
in the blessed place where Gilgamesh found him "in the distance, at the
mouth of the rivers"(72).
 
 
In his classic study, Armenia in the Bible, father Vahan Inglizian
compared the above myths with the Biblical accounts of the Garden of
Eden (Gen. 2) and the Flood (Gen.7-8), both of which he sited in eastern
Asia Minor (73). Accepting Lehmann-Haupt's equation of the tunnel
through Mashu with the naturally occuring subterannean Tigris tunnel
near Bylkalein, Inglizian suggested that Mashu should be sought in the
Armenian Taurus mountain range, south of Lake Van (74). It is in this
same southern area, rather than at Mt. Ararat, that many scholars,
including Inglizian, place the mountain of Noah (Gen. 8.4)(75).
Inglizian suggested that the phrase "at the mouth of the rivers"
describing the blessed land where Utnapishtim lived, should be
understood to mean "at the sources of the [Tigris and Euphrates]
rivers"(76). This heavenly Dilmun of Mesopotamian mythology was later
identified with Bahrain on the Persian Gulf (77).
 
 
 
 
________________________________
 
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Tue 7/1/2008 11:52 AM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)
 
 
 
Hi Phil-
 
 
 
 I know Gilgamesh wasn't in the flood, but he's the one who did the
poling in a boat after killing its crew, not Utnapishtim
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utnapishtim> . Gilgamesh was part god,
not Utnapishtim <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utnapishtim> (Utnapishtim
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utnapishtim> got immortality for his
reward of making a boat and saving life).
 
 
 
Phil said: "It's evident that you are guessing on this"
 
 
 
Sounds to me like you jump to rash conclusions. I read the story not to
long ago and it is still fresh in my mind.
 
 
 
...Bernie
 
 
 
________________________________
 
From: philtill@aol.com [mailto:philtill@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 6:21 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)
 
 
 
Bernie,
 
Gilgamesh wasn't in the flood. The flood hero was Atrahasis (or
Utnapushtim or Ziusudra, depending on which version you are reading).
Gilgamesh was the king who visited Atrahasis on one of his journeys.
Also, Atrahasis wasn't a demi-god with super-human strength to punt
upstream. He was just a normal human who found favor with Ea, but who
became immortal after the flood was over.
 
It's evident that you are guessing on this -- just like you were
guessing in regard to fluid dynamics -- and again you are getting the
facts all wrong. Guesses and opinions are like that.
 
I do agree with your main point: we have to distinguish elements of
myth from elements of history. But consider this: bad arguments and
guesses don't help us make those distinctions reliably. The point of
empirical science is that we can't trust our opinions and so we rely on
hard data, instead.
 
Phil
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 1:10 pm
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)
 
Dick said:
"The eleventh table of Gilgamesh mentions punting holes in the boat and
punting up and down the canals was a typical means of moving boats along
in those days, still is in fact. "
 
 
 
I was thinking about that. Two problems- the boats in Gilgamesh are a
fraction of the size of Noah's ark, and Gilgamesh was part god with
super-human strength (unlike Noah).
 
________________________________
 
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>
[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu?>
] On Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:28 PM
To: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood?
 
 
 
All the parallel ANE flood accounts describe a week long event. Only
Genesis records the flood as a year long saga. The eleventh table of
Gilgamesh mentions punting holes in the boat and punting up and down the
canals was a typical means of moving boats along in those days, still is
in fact. Did Noah endure two rainy seasons and punt up the Tigris
during an intermediate period? Don't know, that's my best guess.
 
 
 
Yours faithfully,
 
 
 
Dick Fischer, author, lecturer
 
Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham
 
www.historicalgenesis.com <http://www.historicalgenesis.com/>
 
 
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu>
[mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu <mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu?>
] On Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:56 PM
Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation
Subject: [asa] Noah's local flood?
 
 
 
I was thinking more about the local flood hypothesis. There needs to be
a geographical bowl structure to keep the water in. I don't think it is
there. Look at this article (Dick Fischer is mentioned in it):
 
 
 
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/physmeso.htm
<http://home.entouch.net/dmd/physmeso.htm>
 
 
 
Excerpt:
 
There are two ways for the ark to be lifted the requisite elevation.
First, the water can do it. Boats in locks are raised in this fashion.
But in order for this to work, the Mesopotamian region must have been
covered by (1982 M (6500 feet of water.). In this case the entire
Mesopotamian civilization would be destroyed. This did not happen.
 
 
 
Comments?
 
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Received on Tue Jul 1 20:08:40 2008

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