Re: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)

From: <philtill@aol.com>
Date: Tue Jul 01 2008 - 19:09:49 EDT

I’m not sure it makes sense for Utnapishtim to use a pole
I think it makes even less sense for Noah to use a pole, since the text doesn't mention it and (like you pointed out) the size of the ark was huge (and didn't have a big crew). 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 7:04 pm
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)

Phil said:
“But Utnapishtim _did_ punt in the flooded river plain as Dick pointed out”

 

I didn’t remember anything in the story about Utnapishtim using poles, so I thought the reference to pole-use was of Gilgamesh (Dick didn’t specifically mention who was using the poles, so I assumed him and I were in agreement to the Gilgamesh use of poles).  From my memory, Utnapishtim simply built a boat and floated around, not using poles to get anywhere… curious- I’ll see if I can check it tonite.  I’m not sure it makes sense for Utnapishtim to use a pole- not sure he was trying to get anywhere specifically; just saving his own skin.  Gilgamesh, OTOH, had a destination to reach.

 

…Bernie

 

From: philtill@aol.com [mailto:philtill@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 3:36 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)

 

 

 

 I know Gilgamesh wasn’t in the flood, but he’s the one who did the poling in a boat after killing its crew, not Utnapishtim. 

Touche.

But Dick was talking about punting in the Flood, and you said that was unreasonable because Noah wasn't a demi-god.  But Utnapishtim _did_ punt in the flooded river plain as Dick pointed out, and like Noah he was not a demi-god, so what was your point?  How is Gilgamesh even relevant to this?

In Tablet X, Gilgamesh was crossing the Waters of Death that surround the edge of the world, not a river flood, and the crew he killed were the Stone Ones who alone could cross it, not ordinary crewmen on a boat.  It had no similarity to a river flood in the plains of the Tigris & Euphrates.  When Gilgamesh tried to cross the Waters of Death, he used three hundred long poles connected end-to-end so that could reach to the bottom, and even that was not deep enough and so he (apparently) used his body as a mast and sailed the rest of the way.

So if you were trying to say that punting up a shallow flood plain is not feasible because Gilgamesh was a demi-god who crossed the Waters of Death with 300 poles to reach the bottom of a supernatural ocean, then I'd say the argument missed the mark!  Can you see why I assumed you were thinking of Utnapishtim's punting (in Tablet XI, to which Dick referred), which would have been relevant?

Sorry for saying you were guessing!

(But on the fluid dynamics you were guessing, even to the point of saying my own background in fluid dynamics is not relevant, which was an outrageous thing to say. People who works in fluids knows that all fluids obey the same N-S equations and similarity relations, so that similar flow regimes can be found on almost all scales, and the same methods and software are used to solve fluids problems across all scales.)

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:52 am
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)

Hi Phil-

 

 I know Gilgamesh wasn’t in the flood, but he’s the one who did the poling in a boat after killing its crew, not Utnapishtim.  Gilgamesh was part god, not Utnapishtim (Utnapishtim got immortality for his reward of making a boat and saving life). 

 

Phil said: “It's evident that you are guessing on this”

 

Sounds to me like you jump to rash conclusions.  I read the story not to long ago and it is still fresh in my mind.

 

…Bernie

 

From: philtill@aol.com [mailto:philtill@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 6:21 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)

 

Bernie,

Gilgamesh wasn't in the flood.  The flood hero was Atrahasis (or Utnapushtim or Ziusudra, depending on which version you are reading).  Gilgamesh was the king who visited Atrahasis on one of his journeys.  Also, Atrahasis wasn't a demi-god with super-human strength to punt upstream.  He was just a normal human who found favor with Ea, but who became immortal after the flood was over.

It's evident that you are guessing on this -- just like you were guessing in regard to fluid dynamics -- and again you are getting the facts all wrong.  Guesses and opinions are like that.

I do agree with your main point:  we have to distinguish elements of myth from elements of history.  But consider this:  bad arguments and guesses don't help us make those distinctions reliably.  The point of empirical science is that we can't trust our opinions and so we rely on hard data, instead.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
To: ASA <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 1:10 pm
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)

Dick said:
“The eleventh table of Gilgamesh mentions punting holes in the boat and punting up and down the canals was a typical means of moving boats along in those days, still is in fact.  “

 

I was thinking about that.  Two problems- the boats in Gilgamesh are a fraction of the size of Noah’s ark, and Gilgamesh was part god with super-human strength (unlike Noah).

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:28 PM
To: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood?

 

All the parallel ANE flood accounts describe a week long event.  Only Genesis records the flood as a year long saga.  The eleventh table of Gilgamesh mentions punting holes in the boat and punting up and down the canals was a typical means of moving boats along in those days, still is in fact.  Did Noah endure two rainy seasons and punt up the Tigris during an intermediate period?  Don’t know, that’s my best guess.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Dick Fischer, author, lecturer

Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham

www.historicalgenesis.com

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:56 PM
Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation
Subject: [asa] Noah's local flood?

 

I was thinking more about the local flood hypothesis.  There needs to be a geographical bowl structure to keep the water in.  I don't think it is there.  Look at this article (Dick Fischer is mentioned in it):

 

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/physmeso.htm

 

Excerpt:

There are two ways for the ark to be lifted the requisite elevation. First, the water can do it. Boats in locks are raised in this fashion. But in order for this to work, the Mesopotamian region must have been covered by (1982 M (6500 feet of water.). In this case the entire Mesopotamian civilization would be destroyed. This did not happen.

 

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Received on Tue Jul 1 19:10:05 2008

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