RE: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)

From: Alexanian, Moorad <>
Date: Tue Jul 01 2008 - 12:44:48 EDT

I found the following, which may be of interest. Moorad

In the view of several scholars, Mashu is also the mountain mentioned in the story that Utnapishtim told Gilgamesh. [18] Utnapishtim, sometimes called the "Sumerian Noah", told Gilgamesh how the gods had become angered with humanity and decided on the Flood as one means to exterminate it. A sympathetic god warned Utnapishtim and told him to build a boat and board it with his family, relatives, craftsmen, and the seed of all living creatures (71). After six days of tempest and flood, Utnapishtim's boat grounded on a mountain. He released a dove and a swallow, both of which returned to him. Then he released a raven which did not return; Utnapishtim and his family came down from the mountain. When the disgruntled gods are finally reconciled with the re-emergence of humanity, Utnapishtim and his wife are taken by the god Enlil to live in the blessed place where Gilgamesh found him "in the distance, at the mouth of the rivers"(72).

In his classic study, Armenia in the Bible, father Vahan Inglizian compared the above myths with the Biblical accounts of the Garden of Eden (Gen. 2) and the Flood (Gen.7-8), both of which he sited in eastern Asia Minor (73). Accepting Lehmann-Haupt's equation of the tunnel through Mashu with the naturally occuring subterannean Tigris tunnel near Bylkalein, Inglizian suggested that Mashu should be sought in the Armenian Taurus mountain range, south of Lake Van (74). It is in this same southern area, rather than at Mt. Ararat, that many scholars, including Inglizian, place the mountain of Noah (Gen. 8.4)(75). Inglizian suggested that the phrase "at the mouth of the rivers" describing the blessed land where Utnapishtim lived, should be understood to mean "at the sources of the [Tigris and Euphrates] rivers"(76). This heavenly Dilmun of Mesopotamian mythology was later identified with Bahrain on the Persian Gulf (77).



From: on behalf of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Tue 7/1/2008 11:52 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)

Hi Phil-


 I know Gilgamesh wasn't in the flood, but he's the one who did the poling in a boat after killing its crew, not Utnapishtim <> . Gilgamesh was part god, not Utnapishtim <> (Utnapishtim <> got immortality for his reward of making a boat and saving life).


Phil said: "It's evident that you are guessing on this"


Sounds to me like you jump to rash conclusions. I read the story not to long ago and it is still fresh in my mind.





From: []
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 6:21 PM
To: Dehler, Bernie;
Subject: Re: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)



Gilgamesh wasn't in the flood. The flood hero was Atrahasis (or Utnapushtim or Ziusudra, depending on which version you are reading). Gilgamesh was the king who visited Atrahasis on one of his journeys. Also, Atrahasis wasn't a demi-god with super-human strength to punt upstream. He was just a normal human who found favor with Ea, but who became immortal after the flood was over.

It's evident that you are guessing on this -- just like you were guessing in regard to fluid dynamics -- and again you are getting the facts all wrong. Guesses and opinions are like that.

I do agree with your main point: we have to distinguish elements of myth from elements of history. But consider this: bad arguments and guesses don't help us make those distinctions reliably. The point of empirical science is that we can't trust our opinions and so we rely on hard data, instead.


-----Original Message-----
From: Dehler, Bernie <>
To: ASA <>
Sent: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 1:10 pm
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood? (Gilgamesh vs. Noah)

Dick said:
"The eleventh table of Gilgamesh mentions punting holes in the boat and punting up and down the canals was a typical means of moving boats along in those days, still is in fact. "


I was thinking about that. Two problems- the boats in Gilgamesh are a fraction of the size of Noah's ark, and Gilgamesh was part god with super-human strength (unlike Noah).


From: <> [ <> ] On Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:28 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Noah's local flood?


All the parallel ANE flood accounts describe a week long event. Only Genesis records the flood as a year long saga. The eleventh table of Gilgamesh mentions punting holes in the boat and punting up and down the canals was a typical means of moving boats along in those days, still is in fact. Did Noah endure two rainy seasons and punt up the Tigris during an intermediate period? Don't know, that's my best guess.


Yours faithfully,


Dick Fischer, author, lecturer

Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham <>



-----Original Message-----
From: <> [ <> ] On Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:56 PM
Cc: AmericanScientificAffiliation
Subject: [asa] Noah's local flood?


I was thinking more about the local flood hypothesis. There needs to be a geographical bowl structure to keep the water in. I don't think it is there. Look at this article (Dick Fischer is mentioned in it): <>



There are two ways for the ark to be lifted the requisite elevation. First, the water can do it. Boats in locks are raised in this fashion. But in order for this to work, the Mesopotamian region must have been covered by (1982 M (6500 feet of water.). In this case the entire Mesopotamian civilization would be destroyed. This did not happen.




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Received on Tue Jul 1 12:47:36 2008

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