Re: [asa] Expelled

From: PvM <>
Date: Mon Apr 28 2008 - 12:02:39 EDT

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 8:53 AM, <> wrote:
> I accept and agree with your point, George -- and if Pim doesn't, I'm not sure
> why he avoids it. It's almost obvious enough to be a truism. Atheists deny any
> absolutely objective basis for morality.

I do not deny this. However I fail to see the relevance of this to
atheism or Christianity. A belief that there exists an objective
standard of morality does not give one much of an advantage and in
fact it can come at great cost.

> I think part of what Pim and myself are exploring as a different direction is
> that despite this, Atheists obviously have not become (by general societal
> standards) completely immoral people -- why not? They would say they just
> adopted the current set of societal standards, and they would go on to press us,
> by asking "what's wrong with that?". We and they both know that they still
> deny that these standards carry any kind of absolute authority. Therefore they
> don't have any foundation by which to call anything absolutely immoral or
> absolutely good. But this doesn't [most of?] them from functioning "as if it
> were so" according to whatever societal whims that have evolved or whatever.

And it gives atheists more flexibility in revising morality when
circumstances arise. For better or for worse, morality is allowed to
evolve with society. We even see some hints of this in the old and new

> I don't think this necessarily need bother the Christian, Pim. If God uses
> biological evolution to bring about his creation of life, then why should it
> bother us if a kind of "societal evolution" brought about morality? We still
> recognize the absolute foundation undergirding it, and that is significant for
> the Christian. Whatever variations various societies and times develop around
> it, they are all roughly around the same theme: treat others as you would be
> treated. The Christian then recognizes the even greater imperative to Love God
> with everything.

It provides a solution to both Christians and Atheists and helps us
understand why we see a 'universal morality grammar' amongst all. Even
the Bible hints at this.
Personally I doubt that there is an objective standard for morality as
moral decisions are so situational dependent both in time and space.
At best there may be rules of guidance such as love they neighbor
which interprets the universal morality grammar.
> --Merv

To unsubscribe, send a message to with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Mon Apr 28 12:03:28 2008

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Mon Apr 28 2008 - 12:03:28 EDT