Re: [asa] Humanity and the Fall: Questions and a Survey

From: <philtill@aol.com>
Date: Sun Apr 27 2008 - 20:14:20 EDT

But I see no problem with my measurements not coinciding simply with those in a different frame of reference, especially since there is a way to convert them rigorously.
But if by "my measurements" you are talking about your own physical body in spacetime, then you've gotten off track from the original discussion.? I was speculating about human beings?having _spirits_ that are non-extended in space (the ordinary physical space of this universe).? If a spirit is non-extended in the space of this universe, then it is impossible for it to be extended in the time of this universe should the special theory of relativity be true in which there is no special reference frame.?

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
To: philtill@aol.com
Cc: gmurphy@raex.com; dopderbeck@gmail.com; asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 6:10 pm
Subject: Re: [asa] Humanity and the Fall: Questions and a Survey

Hi, Phil,

You've misinterpreted what I said. I am a space-time entity, a 3+1 dimensioned creature physically. As to the nonphysical, the best I can do is take the hints in scripture and try to fit them together in a rational pattern. I have fairly clear dimensions in space (I'm always somewhere), but find problems with the single temporal dimension, which seems more punctiliar in the some-when. But I see no problem with my measurements not coinciding simply with those in a different frame of reference, especially since there is a way to convert them rigorously. Since spirit is detected only indirectly, there are more problems that lead to interpretations which are not compatible. All I can hope for is consistency within my view, which has to include a number of "I don't know" and "could be" insertions.

?

As for Craig, I consider him inconsistent. He has God become temporal with creation, which requires that there be?a before-creation, which then is temporal with the change, making the deity temporal and nontemporal simultaneously. He seems to be trying to get classic and open theology to fit simultaneously.

Dave (ASA)

?

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 01:59:23 -0400 philtill@aol.com writes:

Hi Dave,
you said:

>> I am not claiming that there has to be a single measurement to any dimension.
>> I have a consistent measure for space and time within my frame of reference only.

But don't you see that this proves the original point that you can't be non-extended in space, only, and not also?in?time?? If a spirit is non-extended in space, that means he is equally present at all points in spacetime that are simultaneous to one another.? But the set of points that are "simultaneous" depends upon the frame of reference, which depends upon the velocity of the observer --?in this case, the spirit.? But a spirit that is non-extended in space can have no velocity:? without extension in space there can be no location change.? So? any frame of reference is equally valid for a being non-extended is space.? Thus, on a Minkowski-type drawing, for a single frame of reference you'd have to draw the simultaneous points as a line at some angle.? For a spirit in which all frames of reference?are valid, you'd have to draw multiple lines at every possible angle, and these lines would cover the entire diagram.? Thus, all time would be included as the points that are "sim
 ultaneous" for this kind of being.? Thus, he would "simultaneousy" exist at every time just as much as he would at every place.? He not be extended in time.

In a relativistic spacetime, it is impossible to be non-extended in space, only, and not also in time.? That is why William Lane Craig, who wants to believe that God?is extended in a single time dimension like mankind, denies special relativity.

Phil

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?

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Received on Sun Apr 27 20:15:41 2008

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