Re: [asa] Humanity and the Fall: Questions and a Survey

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>
Date: Sun Apr 27 2008 - 18:10:24 EDT

Hi, Phil,
You've misinterpreted what I said. I am a space-time entity, a 3+1
dimensioned creature physically. As to the nonphysical, the best I can do
is take the hints in scripture and try to fit them together in a rational
pattern. I have fairly clear dimensions in space (I'm always somewhere),
but find problems with the single temporal dimension, which seems more
punctiliar in the some-when. But I see no problem with my measurements
not coinciding simply with those in a different frame of reference,
especially since there is a way to convert them rigorously. Since spirit
is detected only indirectly, there are more problems that lead to
interpretations which are not compatible. All I can hope for is
consistency within my view, which has to include a number of "I don't
know" and "could be" insertions.

As for Craig, I consider him inconsistent. He has God become temporal
with creation, which requires that there be a before-creation, which then
is temporal with the change, making the deity temporal and nontemporal
simultaneously. He seems to be trying to get classic and open theology to
fit simultaneously.
Dave (ASA)

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 01:59:23 -0400 writes:
Hi Dave,
you said:

>> I am not claiming that there has to be a single measurement to any
>> I have a consistent measure for space and time within my frame of
reference only.

But don't you see that this proves the original point that you can't be
non-extended in space, only, and not also in time? If a spirit is
non-extended in space, that means he is equally present at all points in
spacetime that are simultaneous to one another. But the set of points
that are "simultaneous" depends upon the frame of reference, which
depends upon the velocity of the observer -- in this case, the spirit.
But a spirit that is non-extended in space can have no velocity: without
extension in space there can be no location change. So any frame of
reference is equally valid for a being non-extended is space. Thus, on a
Minkowski-type drawing, for a single frame of reference you'd have to
draw the simultaneous points as a line at some angle. For a spirit in
which all frames of reference are valid, you'd have to draw multiple
lines at every possible angle, and these lines would cover the entire
diagram. Thus, all time would be included as the points that are
"simultaneous" for this kind of being. Thus, he would "simultaneousy"
exist at every time just as much as he would at every place. He not be
extended in time.

In a relativistic spacetime, it is impossible to be non-extended in
space, only, and not also in time. That is why William Lane Craig, who
wants to believe that God is extended in a single time dimension like
mankind, denies special relativity.


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Received on Sun Apr 27 18:19:48 2008

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