Re: [asa] Expelled

From: George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com>
Date: Sun Apr 27 2008 - 17:46:18 EDT

Serious atheists don't just lack access to a standard of morality. They
know that there is no such standard unless they invent one for themselves.
& they know that there is no reason why the standard they invent should have
any resemblance to current moral standards developed largely through
religious traditions. E.g., there is no reason why any sort of respect for
the welfare of other people beyond matters of self interest should be
maintained. & recognizing that morality is a product of evolution in whole
or in part doesn't provide a solution. So morality has evolved to a certain
point. So what? Why should a person who's realized that adhere to that
product?

& playing the "So's your old man card" is no answer.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----
From: "PvM" <pvm.pandas@gmail.com>
To: "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>
Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Expelled

> And what does this gain us? Knowing that there is something we may
> never know during our lifetimes? One may turn around and argue that
> atheists are not constrained by a quest for searching for this elusive
> standard of morality and therefor can apply more appropriate standards
> when outlining standards for morality.
> What is so problematic about atheists not having access to a 'standard
> of morality' when Christians lack a similar clarity? In both cases it
> comes down to us defining our standards of morality. In the end we all
> work from subjective standards, whether or not we believe there is a
> Higher Being who has His own set of standards.
>
> Now what if our sense of morality evolved, that would add an even more
> interesting twist to this story.
>
> On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 2:01 PM, George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com> wrote:
>> You miss the point. If one believes in God as creator of the world then
>> it
>> makes sense to believe that there are standards of morality which have
>> some
>> source beyond the world even if we don't know in detail what those
>> standards
>> are. Denial of the existence of a creator means that there is no basis
>> for
>> such a claim.
>>
>>
>> Shalom
>> George
>> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "PvM" <pvm.pandas@gmail.com>
>> To: "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>
>> Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 4:56 PM
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Expelled
>>
>>
>>
>> > I find the argument that atheists lack a moral standard of ethics
>> > quite flawed, as flawed as the idea that Christianity somehow provides
>> > us with a clear standard of morality. At best the Bible gives us
>> > guidelines which we attempt to interpret as best as we can to guide us
>> > in how we behave. However, the Bible is hardly a reliable or unique
>> > source of morality.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 3:52 PM, George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > > The soft atheists of coursel argue, with a good deal of truth, that
>> > > religious people in general aren't a lot more moral than atheists.
>> > > But
>> > > there is no reason for athiests like Dawkins to follow any particular
>> syatem
>> > > of morality or ethics. OTOH, religious people have a moral standard
>> > > by
>> > > which they can be judged. The point is not that atheists are more
>> immoral
>> > > than believers but that they are unwilling or afraid to face up to
>> > > the
>> > > consequences of their position.
>> > >
>> > > Shalom
>> > > George
>> > > http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: David Heddle
>> > > To: PvM
>> > > Cc: David Campbell ; asa@calvin.edu
>> > > Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 5:10 PM
>> > > Subject: Re: [asa] Expelled
>> > >
>> > > I'll take a stab--the answer is twofold. One is that his statements
>> > > are
>> so
>> > > outrageous. His claims of child abuse will not resonate except with
>> > > his
>> own
>> > > choir. The other is that his arguments against theism are so childish
>> and
>> > > primitive--boiling down to "religious people are dumb" and "if God
>> > > mad
>> > > everything, who made God?" Compared to intellectual atheists of the
>> past,
>> > > such as Bertrand Russel, Dawkins is (when it comes to theology) a
>> > > lightweight. PZ tried to rescue him with the "Courtiers Reply" but
>> > > that
>> is
>> > > little more than a justification and a rationalization to make a
>> > > simpleminded response instead of doing your homework.
>> > >
>> > > In my opinion, Dawkins is to atheism what Benny Hinn is to theism.
>> > >
>> > > David Heddle
>> > > Associate Professor of Physics
>> > > Christopher Newport University, &
>> > > The Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 2:51 PM, PvM <pvm.pandas@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > How is Dawkins one of the best arguments against atheism?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 11:37 AM, David Campbell
>> <pleuronaia@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > By accepting the claim that evolution entails scientism and by
>> doing > > a
>> > > > > poor critique, the movie to me does more to endorse scientism
>> > > > > than
>> > > to
>> > > > > counter it. Of course, conversely Dawkins is one of the best
>> > > > > arguments against atheism.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --
>> > > > > Dr. David Campbell
>> > > > > 425 Scientific Collections
>> > > > > University of Alabama
>> > > > > "I think of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of clams"
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>> > > > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
>> > > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
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>>
>

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Received on Sun Apr 27 17:49:39 2008

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