RE: [asa] Are TE and ID Really That Far Apart?

From: Dehler, Bernie <bernie.dehler@intel.com>
Date: Sat Apr 26 2008 - 19:20:00 EDT

Hi Dick-

 

 There's a much worse critter than mosquitoes... humans, and built "in
the image of God" at that. That is in reference to the human history of
war.

 

________________________________

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 8:59 AM
To: ASA
Subject: RE: [asa] Are TE and ID Really That Far Apart?

 

How do mosquitoes fit in the design picture? Perfectly structured by
some disembodied spirit entity to spread disease. Maybe eliminating a
million African children a year is a good thing? I'll stick with
natural causation without divine interference, thank you. That way I
can swat them without feeling I'm squashing a divinely "designed"
creature.

 

Dick Fischer, author, lecturer

Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham

www.historicalgenesis.com <http://www.historicalgenesis.com/>

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Nucacids
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 12:13 AM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Are TE and ID Really That Far Apart?

 

 

TE and ID are far apart when ID is proposed as a substitute for
evolution.

However, both ID and evolution can co-exist, where evolution has, in
some

way, been shaped by design.

 

-Mike

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Rich Blinne" <rich.blinne@gmail.com>

To: "David Opderbeck" <dopderbeck@gmail.com>

Cc: "asa" <asa@calvin.edu>

Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:18 PM

Subject: [asa] Are TE and ID Really That Far Apart?

 

 

>

> On Apr 23, 2008, at 5:52 PM, David Opderbeck wrote:

>

>> I really enjoy Stephen Barr's work and he's a very interesting guy.

>> Query though: is cosmological design really not a form of "ID"? It

>> seems to me that many people who find cosmological design arguments

>> potentially helpful are put off of biological design arguments
because

>> of the overstatement, politicization, etc. of the "ID movement" --

>> myself included. So making a distinction between cosmological and

>> biological ID is almost more of a necessary difference in politics,

>> style, and emphasis.

>>

>>

>

> Absolutely correct, David. I'll strengthen your point. Both are design

> arguments. They have the same form and have the same substance. In

> addition to that both have roughly the same concept of evolution.
Dembski

> saying TE could be OK at the Messiah 2005 debate. Behe holds to
common

> descent and natural selection. The one difference on so- called random

> mutation could be lessened if ID understood what is meant by us by
random

> and by focusing on the non-randomness of the evolutionary process. By

> this I mean that evolution is random in the same sense that our
children

> are male or female randomly or to use the Biblical example the random
bow

> shot that killed Ahab. I'll spare the rest of the rehash of concursus

> divinitatis. BTW, I liked your discussion on analogia entis but that
just

> proves that I am Reformed and George is Lutheran. :-)

>

> It seems to me that ID's problem is its own little form of scientism.

> Perhaps they cannot seem to identify the designer because of the
issues

> that you as a lawyer have brought out previously. The other reason
that I

> have heard specifically stated is they think it makes them sound more

> reasonable when it does the exact opposite. I have absolutely no
problem

> that my kind of ID is not scientific and that my intent is to provide

> evidence for the Christian God. Again, as you have noted earlier
science

> isn't more objective than other kinds of truth. It just uses a
process

> that deals with our inherent subjectivity by having the checks and

> balances of peer review and testing hypotheses physically. Thanks for
the

> heads up today on their journal which hasn't published anything in
years.

> If the scientific elite truly were suppressing the truth or
demarcating

> it into oblivion then this journal provides a way to get their
vaunted

> research program out. But, there is no research program even though

> Philip Johnson promised not to move on to getting ID into the schools

> until they had real science to be taught. I believe -- correct me if
I

> am wrong -- that it should be able to be taught in a philosophy class
or

> the like in a survey style -- much like comparative religions. Now,
they

> seem to think that this is inferior or more likely they perceive that

> *we* think it is inferior. At least for me, this is not true. Just

> because I believe that ID is not science does not imply I believe ID
is

> not true (although some of the arguments are really, really bogus.)

> Furthermore, ID is better classified as philosophy anyway. What

> biological ID went through does serve as a cautionary tale for us when
we

> use a cosmological ID argument which in my opinion is the strongest
arrow

> in their quiver. Nevertheless, as George has noted the "many worlds"

> hypothesis for quantum physics and multiverses in general still are
out

> there as legitimate possibilities. Any of these arguments should be
more

> confirmatory rather than as a freestanding "proof".

>

> I really don't understand why we cannot talk about philosophy and

> theology. As your legal analysis has shown I see very little chance
ID,

> or "teaching the controversy", or whatever the strategy du jour is
ever

> getting in the schools. Given that, why not show our colors? But,
this

> cannot happen as shown when both of us got booted from Uncommon
Descent.

> Or, that theology was off the table at Messiah '05.

>

> I do have an idea for their research program. Show how the
evolutionary

> process is not random, not how it cannot happen. We can give them
help

> here. This could be like the '95 Behe/Miller debate in reverse where
Behe

> showed that Miller's textbook claimed purposeless evolution and
Miller

> knowing that evolution is not random in the popular sense fixed the

> error. It came back to bite him in the Dover trial where the old
version

> was being used and Miller pointed to the new version. If the heart of
the

> problem ID has is a random, purposeless, evolution, then we are here
to

> help show how current, mainstream, evolutionary theory shows
otherwise.

> It would require them to risk getting "expelled" by their YEC allies,

> though.

>

> Rich Blinne

> Member ASA

>

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>

>

>

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>

 

 

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Received on Sat Apr 26 19:21:15 2008

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