Re: [asa] Expelled and ID

From: David Clounch <>
Date: Fri Apr 25 2008 - 02:32:04 EDT


It would be very interesting for us to discover whether methodological
naturalism was invented in the twentieth century, or whether it has roots
further back in history and was merely borrowed. I could be wrong in
claiming it to have been invented by (De Vries?) at Wheaton. It's just that
I haven't gotten around to discovering any earlier source. As I remember
it, Poe claimed the De Vries paper was the very first published anywhere.

Other forms of naturalism were obviously re-emergent in enlightenment
and post-enlightenment times. I believe Barr and D'Souza both argue
that naturalism itself is a Christian idea of ancient derivation.
Christians thought a rational approach to the universe combined with a God
that is outside the universe implied that the world runs in a regular
order. Thus paganism and animism were to be rejected, partly because they
depended on supernatural forces within nature. Naturalism speaks
against that.


On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:13 PM, D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>

> You're repeating the lie that is foundational in Johnson and ID.
> Metaphysical naturalism, scientism, materialism and their ilk have ancient
> roots, although some gained popularity again with the Enlightenment. There
> is no way that I can be a theist and a metaphysical naturalist. But there
> are many theists who are methodological naturalists--they have to be both to
> be scientists.
> Dave (ASA)
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 08:56:19 -0400 "David Opderbeck" <>
> writes:
> <snip>
> Dave Clounch asks: A third question is, "Should school children be
> informed of the theological roots of naturalism?"
> I respond: Not sure what you mean by the "theological roots of naturalism"
> here -- but if you mean that methodolgical naturalism derives from
> metaphysical naturalism, if that were accurate, you could probably discuss
> this in a history class.
> As your questions illustrate, it is extremely difficult in the public
> education setting to discuss any issues about religion and science, even at
> the level of basic presuppositions.
> <snip>

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Received on Fri Apr 25 02:32:48 2008

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