Re: [asa] Expelled and ID (ID detection?)

From: George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com>
Date: Mon Apr 21 2008 - 19:20:36 EDT

In the Fourth Gospel the glory of God is revealed in Jesus' "hour" - i.e., in the cross-resurrection event. The heavens do not show us that. From the standpoint of faith, however, we can see the mark of the cross on creation.

On pp.189 - 190 of Theological Science Torrance rejects the analogia entis.

I think Barth was speaking a bit (!) too strongly when he called the analogia entis "the mark of Antichrist." But it's a bad & misleading idea.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: David Opderbeck
  To: George Murphy
  Cc: asa@calvin.edu
  Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 5:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [asa] Expelled and ID (ID detection?)

   I think Psalm 19 and Romans 1 say a bit more than just that people should be able to know there is a God from the creation. Psalm 19 says the heavens declare God's "glory" and that creation "pours forth speach" and "reveals knowledge"; Romans 1:20 says the creation displays God's "invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature."

  Isn't there a place for the analogia entis in Torrance's reformulation of natural theology?

  On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 5:21 PM, George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com> wrote:

    Scripture has no natural theology, modest ot otherwise. It suggests, at most, that people should be able to know that there is a God from the creation. But the bare existence of God tells us nothing about the character of God - i.e., what God is like. & that's what the analogia entis claims.

    God's actions in history, culminating in Christ, show us the character of God.

    Shalom
    George
    http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: David Opderbeck
      To: George Murphy
      Cc: David Campbell ; asa@calvin.edu
      Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 4:15 PM
      Subject: Re: [asa] Expelled and ID (ID detection?)

      Ah, I knew we'd hear the Lutheran critique! :-)

      I wouldn't say the analogia entis is purely speculative -- it seems to me to reflect scripture's own modest natural theology (Ps. 119, Rom. 1:20)

      On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:08 PM, George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com> wrote:

        The analogia entis is purely speculative - there is no reason to think that the creation has to resemble the creator. To put it in terms of the two books metaphor, the "book of nature" tells us about nature, not the author of nature. Ezra Pound's quip is relevant: "You can spot the the bad critic when he starts by discussing the poet and not the poem."

        Shalom
        George
        http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: David Opderbeck
          To: David Campbell
          Cc: asa@calvin.edu
          Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 12:56 PM
          Subject: Re: [asa] Expelled and ID (ID detection?)

          #2a is where, IMHO, ID shoots itself in the foot by denying that the designer must be God. One could make a theological argument that if the creation reflects God's character, and if humans are made in the image of God, then we do have at least some information about what God as designer would or would not do. This is the analogia entis, the analogy of being, which is a kind of natural theology (but not the strong kind of argument from design advanced by Paley). Bonaventure offered a medieval understanding of the analogia entis as follows:

            "All created things of the sensible world lead the mind of the contemplator and wise man to eternal God... They are the shades, the resonances, the pictures of that efficient, exemplifying, and ordering art; they are the tracks, simulacra, and spectacles; they are divinely given signs set before us for the purpose of seeing God. They are exemplifications set before our still unrefined and sense-oriented minds, so that by the sensible things which they see they might be transferred to the intelligible which they cannot see, as if by signs to the signified" (Itinerarium mentis ad Deum, 2.11, as quoted p. 165).

          Good discussion of the analogia entis, the protestant-Lutheran-Barthian response to it, and a balanced perspective, here: http://millinerd.com/2006/12/whos-afraid-of-analogia-entis.html

            On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:45 AM, David Campbell <pleuronaia@gmail.com> wrote:

            Design could be detected scientifically if:
            1) it is clearly defined as to what is or is not designed

            and

            2a) either we have information about what a designer would or would not do

            or

            2b) we have a large sample of known examples of designed and
            non-designed objects from which we can characterize patterns.

            Both multiverse and pro-ID fine-tuning arguments run afoul of
            criterion 2. We need to know either who the designer is and what
            actions he/she/it/they would take (both ID and atheism advocates
            profess ignorance about who yet certainty about what actions are
            expected, an implausible position) or else need something like the
            answer to the old spoof exam question "Describe the universe and give
            three examples", except that only three examples won't give you enough
            statistical confidence.

            In the case of human activity, we have fairly good ideas about both 2a
            and 2b. If "design" is defined as intentional human action, we can
            compare things made by non-human natural agents with things made by
            people and thus have a good idea as to whether, e.g., a crudely flaked
            flint pebble was deliberately shaped by an early hominid or trampled
            by a herd of antelope.

            --
            Dr. David Campbell
            425 Scientific Collections
            University of Alabama
            "I think of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of clams"

            To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
            "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.

          --
          David W. Opderbeck
          Associate Professor of Law
          Seton Hall University Law School
          Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

      --
      David W. Opderbeck
      Associate Professor of Law
      Seton Hall University Law School
      Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

  --
  David W. Opderbeck
  Associate Professor of Law
  Seton Hall University Law School
  Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Mon Apr 21 19:24:20 2008

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Mon Apr 21 2008 - 19:24:21 EDT