Re: [asa] Expelled and ID (ID detection?)

From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
Date: Mon Apr 21 2008 - 17:39:20 EDT

 I think Psalm 19 and Romans 1 say a bit more than just that people should
be able to know there is a God from the creation. Psalm 19 says the heavens
declare God's "glory" and that creation "pours forth speach" and "reveals
knowledge"; Romans 1:20 says the creation displays God's "invisible
attributes, his eternal power and divine nature."

Isn't there a place for the analogia entis in Torrance's reformulation of
natural theology?

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 5:21 PM, George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com> wrote:

> Scripture has no natural theology, modest ot otherwise. It suggests, at
> most, that people should be able to know that there is a God from the
> creation. But the bare existence of God tells us nothing about the
> character of God - i.e., what God is like. & that's what the *analogia
> entis* claims.
>
> God's actions in history, culminating in Christ, show us the character of
> God.
>
> Shalom
> George
> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> *To:* George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com>
> *Cc:* David Campbell <pleuronaia@gmail.com> ; asa@calvin.edu
> *Sent:* Monday, April 21, 2008 4:15 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Expelled and ID (ID detection?)
>
> Ah, I knew we'd hear the Lutheran critique! :-)
>
> I wouldn't say the analogia entis is purely speculative -- it seems to me
> to reflect scripture's own modest natural theology (Ps. 119, Rom. 1:20)
>
> On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:08 PM, George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com> wrote:
>
> > The *analogia entis* is purely speculative - there is no reason to
> > think that the creation has to resemble the creator. To put it in terms of
> > the two books metaphor, the "book of nature" tells us about nature, not the
> > author of nature. Ezra Pound's quip is relevant: "You can spot the the bad
> > critic when he starts by discussing the poet and not the poem."
> >
> > Shalom
> > George
> > http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
> > *To:* David Campbell <pleuronaia@gmail.com>
> > *Cc:* asa@calvin.edu
> > *Sent:* Monday, April 21, 2008 12:56 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [asa] Expelled and ID (ID detection?)
> >
> > #2a is where, IMHO, ID shoots itself in the foot by denying that the
> > designer must be God. One could make a theological argument that if the
> > creation reflects God's character, and if humans are made in the image of
> > God, then we *do* have at least some information about what God as
> > designer would or would not do. This is the analogia entis, the analogy of
> > being, which is a kind of natural theology (but not the strong kind of
> > argument from design advanced by Paley). Bonaventure offered a medieval
> > understanding of the analogia entis as follows:
> >
> >
> > "All created things of the sensible world lead the mind of the
> > contemplator and wise man to eternal God... They are the shades, the
> > resonances, the pictures of that efficient, exemplifying, and ordering art;
> > they are the tracks, simulacra, and spectacles; they are divinely given
> > signs set before us for the purpose of seeing God. They are exemplifications
> > set before our still unrefined and sense-oriented minds, so that by the
> > sensible things which they see they might be transferred to the intelligible
> > which they cannot see, as if by signs to the signified" (*Itinerarium
> > mentis ad Deum*, 2.11, as quoted p. *165*<http://www.amazon.com/Power-Images-Studies-History-Response/dp/0226261468/sr=8-1/qid=1166403688/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-3098627-7623259?ie=UTF8&s=books>
> > ).
> >
> >
> > Good discussion of the analogia entis, the protestant-Lutheran-Barthian
> > response to it, and a balanced perspective, here:
> > http://millinerd.com/2006/12/whos-afraid-of-analogia-entis.html
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 11:45 AM, David Campbell <pleuronaia@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Design could be detected scientifically if:
> > > 1) it is clearly defined as to what is or is not designed
> > >
> > > and
> > >
> > > 2a) either we have information about what a designer would or would
> > > not do
> > >
> > > or
> > >
> > > 2b) we have a large sample of known examples of designed and
> > > non-designed objects from which we can characterize patterns.
> > >
> > > Both multiverse and pro-ID fine-tuning arguments run afoul of
> > > criterion 2. We need to know either who the designer is and what
> > > actions he/she/it/they would take (both ID and atheism advocates
> > > profess ignorance about who yet certainty about what actions are
> > > expected, an implausible position) or else need something like the
> > > answer to the old spoof exam question "Describe the universe and give
> > > three examples", except that only three examples won't give you enough
> > > statistical confidence.
> > >
> > > In the case of human activity, we have fairly good ideas about both 2a
> > > and 2b. If "design" is defined as intentional human action, we can
> > > compare things made by non-human natural agents with things made by
> > > people and thus have a good idea as to whether, e.g., a crudely flaked
> > > flint pebble was deliberately shaped by an early hominid or trampled
> > > by a herd of antelope.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dr. David Campbell
> > > 425 Scientific Collections
> > > University of Alabama
> > > "I think of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of clams"
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, send a message to majordomo@calvin.edu with
> > > "unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > David W. Opderbeck
> > Associate Professor of Law
> > Seton Hall University Law School
> > Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> David W. Opderbeck
> Associate Professor of Law
> Seton Hall University Law School
> Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
>
>

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
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Received on Mon Apr 21 17:41:05 2008

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