RE: [asa] Expelled and ID (ID detection?)

From: Dehler, Bernie <>
Date: Mon Apr 21 2008 - 11:05:19 EDT

"Since there is no lab test that can be used to tell what is designed or
what isn't or nothing that can falsify it. "


In the exposed movie, Dawkins is interviewed and asked if ID is true,
how it could be detected, and Dawkins talks of a "signature" that could
conceivably be found. That would not be proof, but evidence. Dawkins
is taken out of context, but what he says does address your question.
Dawkins says he could even accept an Intelligent Designer- but where did
the designer come from? Must have come thru Darwinian processes
elsewhere, always building up from simple to complex-not abruptly
appearing complex.



From: [] On
Behalf Of skrogh.
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 6:44 PM
To: David Opderbeck
Cc: D. F. Siemens, Jr.;
Subject: RE: [asa] Expelled and ID


Thanks for the input, but that is not what we are really talking about
with my modicum of sarcasm. I am talking about Design in the ID movement
in trying to compete with legit sciences, not as in that 70's song
"Master Designer." Since there is no lab test that can be used to tell
what is designed or what isn't or nothing that can falsify it. Similar
to trying to falsify Omphalism. Hope that clears it up.



        -----Original Message-----
        From: David Opderbeck []
        Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:34 PM
        Cc: D. F. Siemens, Jr.;
        Subject: Re: [asa] Expelled and ID

        Whatever you think if ID, "bad design" is a poor response if you
believe in a creator God at all. However God created, this is we He
did, "bad" designs and all. Unless you profess a God who isn't in
control over whatever procesess He used to create.

        On Sun, Apr 20, 2008 at 3:21 PM, skrogh.
<> wrote:


        Bad designs haven't seemed to gotten through the ID design

                -----Original Message-----
[]On Behalf Of D. F. Siemens, Jr.
                Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 10:35 PM
                Subject: Re: [asa] Expelled and ID

                I think there is one which does so in principle. It's
opposite would justify ID. If we have sequenced the genomes of all the
species, or at least all the species in one kingdom, and figured out
exactly how all the various parts work, if we discover some
genes/control sequences/whatever else comes up that cannot be derived
from others earlier in the evolutionary development, we presumably have
evidence that they were introduced by the deity or some superior power.
This is sure evidence for ID. However, the current indication is that we
have sequences in genomes that simply preserve stuff from the past,
which is clear evidence against ID. Things are too sloppy to be
designed, unless the designer intends to mislead us.


                Generally, given the state of human knowledge, proof and
falsification are claims too strong to be supported.

                Dave (ASA)


                On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:46:02 -0500 "skrogh."
<> writes:

                        Also, can one conceive of a potential
observation that would falsify ID?

                                -----Original Message-----
[]On Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
                                Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 5:39 PM
                                Subject: RE: [asa] Expelled and ID

                                ID is saying it is "science" so it can
be more serious. To make it science, you have to bear on scientific
things, such as math (statistics) and biology. So they are appealing to
the hard sciences to bring it into the scientific realm.


                                However, they have no scientific
hypothesis. "God made it" is not a hypothesis, since it can't be
tested. By definition, the scientific method requires a hypothesis that
can be tested. You also can't test evolution per "origin of life," but
there are other parts of evolution which are testable... ID has nothing
testable. They think by disproving known naturalistic methods, God is
then the default answer-but it isn't.



[] On Behalf Of Mountainwoman
                                Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 2:10 PM
                                Subject: [asa] Expelled and ID


                                Having just seen Ben Stein's "Expelled,"
one thought that occurred to me is the following:


                                Is Intelligent Design a modern
incarnation of the classic teleological argument for the existence of
God and therefore belongs in the philosophy and/or theology departments
of universities rather than in the science departments?


                                Paul Bruggink (ASA Member)

                                Clarington, PA


        David W. Opderbeck
        Associate Professor of Law
        Seton Hall University Law School
        Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

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Received on Mon Apr 21 11:07:05 2008

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