Re: [asa] Fw: Message to Jennifer M. Granholm, Governor of Michigan

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>
Date: Mon Apr 07 2008 - 14:22:56 EDT

A small correction about "mutation." My old Webster's Unabridged has 14
meanings in 5 major categories. Included is a meaning about general
sudden change, along with specific references to music and language. Two
major categories fit biology generally, one of which is specific to
paleontology. To have to specify meaning 4a or 4b or 4c in a biological
context would, I am certain, be stupid. To specify that the meaning is
not biological in a treatise on medieval music would be equally stupid.

By the way, "evolution" has a longer entry.
Dave (ASA)

On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 10:10:56 -0400 <> writes:

You dont listen, let me demonstrate. How many times in this response are
you showing your misunderstanding?
"This is exactly the attitude that exacerbates things. You have
misunderstood my intention, Jack. I don't mind criticism, in fact, I
welcome it. That is, if it can be conducted in a fair spirit, which is
said to define this ASA list. "
I never said that you dont welcome criticism. I was just saying that I
was hoping the moderators would take my comments as an attempt at
constructive criticism, and not as an attack on you.
"First, if you boot me, you boot sociology. There are no other
sociologists here. Sociology of science may not be comfortable for
scientists to listen to (and sometimes actually to hear), but it is a
legitimate and recognized sub-discipline in the field of sociology.
Science-friendly should be also sociology-friendly, which this list
sometimes appears not to be."

I never mentioned booting you. I was talking about the moderators
booting me. Michael Roberts got booted. The only public post that I saw
of his that might have cause that was a post directed towards you. It
was sarcastic, but if that is all there was I dont think the punishment
fits the crime. I suspect there was more to it. But, I am concerned
that I will be booted too, the list is being censored now. But I never
ever mentioned you being booted.

"Second, do you want me to post a list with a range of places, fields,
disciplines in today's academy outside of natural sciences where
'evolutionary theory' is widely used? Would this convince you that
'evolution is not a specifically biological entity'?? "

This is the area yes that you could make some valuable contribution. I
dont know anything about evolution outside of biology, and frankly cant
even conceive of it, in the same way that I understand biological
evolution. I dont see a mechanism for it. But Gregory you need to
understand this, and please listen. This is a list about science and the
bible, and most specifically about origins. Biological evolution has
something to say about what the bible has to say. And even if
evolutionary theory in these other disciplines might have something to
say about the bible, (and I dont think it has much to say), I would
contend that the other disciplines say nothing at all about the
interaction with science and the bible as far as origins go.

"Actually, Jack, now that you say it so clearly and precisely, this is
EXACTLY the point I've been trying to make. Some people wish to insist,
as you do, that "evolution is specifically a biological entity," while
others are more in tune with contemporary academia on a broader context,
to recognize that evolution is far bigger than merely biology. If you
don't yet know this, please don't weigh in as an authority on the issue.
It's similar in scope to saying that women can't be scientists! Stephen's
post is actually disingenuous because it just asks a question to a
question. And then it goes on to question whether sociology is actually a
science. Now that I have answered him (mutations do not belong in
human-social sciences), we'll see if he can contribute something
positive. Can Stephen, as a biologist, admit there are some places that
'evolutionary theory' doesn't belong?"

I covered a lot of this in my last comment. But why do you put in
sentences like: "If you don't yet know this, please don't weigh in as an
authority on the issue. It's similar in scope to saying that women can't
be scientists!" This is an example of the rhetoric without content that
you use. When did I ever say I was an authority? And of course I never
said anything about women and science, that is a cheap rhetorical trick
that you use all the time, and it is inappropriate and doesnt at all
belong in an intelligent dialogue. You also took a cheap shot at Stephen
implying that he has not contributed anything positive. If you get
booted, and I have not suggested that, it should be for things like that.

"Oh, yes, I am listening Jack, my ears, eyes and heart are open! Spell
out my agenda more clearly than I have, please Jack. To defend sociology
against the oppression of biology ('the biological challenge to social
science,' 2006) is a clear mission!

My humility, Jack is easily recognized as coming from a 'smaller'
discipline than biology. I just challenged the condescension of biology
toward sociology (e.g. sociobiology and evolutionary psychology), and now
am told that I condescend upon biology. This, I find mysteriously
interesting! -) "

Well there you go. You just spelled out your agenda. You have come to a
list that discusses science and the bible, specifically evolution and
origins, to complain about the oppression of biology. I honestly dont
care about this battle you are fighting. I am interested in the serious
issues regarding origins. And you might be able to, but so far you have
not contributed to the origins discussion, because you have been focused
on an agenda that many here are not as interested in as you are. Take
your rhetoric somewhere else. You obviously are defensive about your
discipline, but that did not come from the people on this list.

You also obviously dont know the meaning of humility.

"Warm regards, G."

This just sounds disingenous, there is nothing at all warm about anything
you had to say.


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Received on Mon Apr 7 14:26:10 2008

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