Re: [asa] HPSS - Survey of Views

From: George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com>
Date: Sat Apr 05 2008 - 11:19:19 EDT

It doesn't have to show up at all if God continually sustains and governs
creation by cooperating with creatures in accord with the lawlike properties
with which God has endowed them.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
To: "Randy Isaac" <randyisaac@comcast.net>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] HPSS - Survey of Views

Surely, one can believe that "God sustains His creation, which means 'no
God, no nothing'"together with deism, viz., God does not intervene with the
affairs of human life and the laws of the universe. What if one supposes
the former and rejects the latter, how far away from deism are our views.
That is to say, "to what extent God sustaining the creation shows up in the
existence and temporal development of all that there is?"

Moorad

________________________________

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Randy Isaac
Sent: Fri 4/4/2008 7:41 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] HPSS - Survey of Views

Greg,
 I've read only Kuhn and read about Popper's views. Though I'm interested in
knowing what they have to say, I'm not inclined to spend the time reading
them. Nor, to my knowledge, do I know many scientists who do. Most of us
prefer to just do the science. We know it when we see it but can't always
define it. Are you indirectly confirming that all the paradigm changes they
consider still retain the core of a belief that science is possible?
  Moorad, I'm not sure I understand your question but I do believe that the
fact that anything exists at all and that what does exist is coherent and
orderly is one of the more potent arguments for the existence of God.
  Randy

----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Arago <mailto:gregoryarago@yahoo.ca>
To: Alexanian, Moorad <mailto:alexanian@uncw.edu> ; Randy Isaac
<mailto:randyisaac@comcast.net> ; asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 5:27 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] HPSS - Survey of Views

"But I wonder if any of these 4 (or others) philosophers of science ever
considered a paradigm shift that included abandoning the idea of a
consistent order in the universe?" - Randy Isaac

Yes, those 4 are all philosophers of science. But also, as I pointed out in
the previous post, they are trained in physics, mathematics and psychology.
So they are also 'scientists' as far as the term goes. As to your above
question, Randy, it makes me wonder if you have read any of them, especially
Feyerabend. This indeed was the main purpose of the thread to discover.
Thanks to those who have already commented on this survey in public and
private. - G.A.

"Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu> wrote:

Scripturally, God sustains His creation, which means "no God, no nothing."
Therefore, to what extent God sustaining the creation shows up in the
existence and temporal development of all that there is?

Moorad

________________________________

From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu on behalf of Randy Isaac
Sent: Fri 4/4/2008 10:56 AM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] HPSS - Survey of Views

Jim,
Maybe we need to differentiate between the perspective of a given
scientist and that which develops from the collective perspective of the
scientific community. Certainly, each scientist approaches the data from a
paradigmatic framework and is not (cannot, I think) be "purely objective",
whatever that might mean. However, part of the essence of scientific
methodology is independent corroboration and reproducibility and acceptance
by the collective community of scientists in that particular field. In
principle, this means that scientists from all sorts of different
sociological and philosophical perspectives weigh in on the matter. This
doesn't mean that complete objectivity without influence by any paradigm is
achieved but it does make a big difference in sifting out spurious results
that might be unique to a given paradigm. What needs to remain in common to
all paradigms is the core belief that there is order in the universe and
that science is possible

This core belief is what differentiates many creationist and ID
presuppositions. Creationists typically claim significant discontinuities in
the laws of nature. This means that whatever order there is in the universe
was different in the past, the so-called non-uniformitarian assumption.
Some, though not all, ID perspectives include the idea that certain aspects
of the order in the universe bear the hallmarks of intelligent manipulation
rather than typical cause and effect relationships.

As a result, when the paradigm that shapes one's conclusions differs at
such a basic level, all sorts of red flags are raised. It's no wonder that
conflicts ensue. But I wonder if any of these 4 (or others) philosophers of
science ever considered a paradigm shift that included abandoning the idea
of a consistent order in the universe? My guess is that when they talk of
paradigm shifts, they reall mean something very different.

Randy

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Mahaffy"
To:
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] HPSS - Survey of Views

> Folks
>
> Kuhn -- yes and he was very important in helping me understand that
> science does not work just objectively
> Popper -- am somewhat aware of him but have not read him and way back when
> I picked up one of his books did not find it easy to read.
> Others -- not really.
>
>
> It is interesting how often on this group science appears in many posts to
> be objective and not really influenced by paradigms.
>
> James Mahaffy (mahaffy@dordt.edu) Phone: 712 722-6279
> 498 4th Ave NE
> Biology Department FAX : 712 722-1198
> Dordt College, Sioux Center IA 51250-1697
>
>
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Received on Sat Apr 5 11:22:27 2008

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