RE: [asa] Expelled. Have you heard of this?

From: John Walley <>
Date: Sat Mar 22 2008 - 16:36:52 EDT

After considerable debate on this topic many months ago, I think the generic
design argument which I will define as the just-so parameters of the
physical universe, is still a powerful apologetic and it deserves a some
recognition and support of thinking Christians. I extracted this concession
out of many on this list under duress including Pim although for him it was
by the hardest.
The problem though and the source of the resistance of science to supporting
ID, is that ID presses the design argument too far and it appears to break
down as you try to extend it into the biological sciences. There are a lot
of just-so coincidences in biology as well but some examples of a lack of,
or broken design that cause thorny problems for the design argument if you
are intellectually honest about it.
I also think it is a mistake to bet the design farm on mechanisms like
irreducible complexity because that may be contested and disproven and the
true design is embedded at a lower level and that is where the design
argument should be framed. And the fatal fundamental flaw of ID is my
opinion is the conclusion that all this unexplained just-so complexity had
to be the product of special creation which is just wrong and
counterproductive. Ken Miller points out in his presentation that ID is
defined by Behe himself as special creation but interestingly Miller himself
accepts the design argument if you factor out the special creation
Guys like Ben Stein and other proponents of ID could be useful to the church
if they appreciated this distinction and adapted their content accordingly.
Unfortunately, they appear instead to be promoting the warfare model as Dick
mentioned earlier which really just drives the wedge between science and the
church in even deeper. This is a real opportunity for those in ASA to try to
reach Stein and others in our post-Dover climate to try to help them see
this and why it makes such an important difference.

-----Original Message-----
From: [] On
Behalf Of Dehler, Bernie
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Expelled. Have you heard of this?

I have a feeling this movie is going to make a lot of commotion-we should be
ready for it!



From: [] On
Behalf Of Dick Fischer
Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: [asa] Expelled. Have you heard of this?


I met Ben when he was in Washington hawking his anti-evolution movie.
Frankly, I liked him better in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off." His movie
character made better sense too.


Dick Fischer. author, lecturer

Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham


-----Original Message-----
From: [] On
Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2008 10:44 PM
Subject: [asa] Expelled. Have you heard of this?


Apparently Dawkins himself went to an invite only preview last night in
Minnesota, without an invitation, but was introduced at the end. This is
a pro ID/anti "darwinism" documentary.


Ben Stein?!

To unsubscribe, send a message to with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Sat Mar 22 16:38:21 2008

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Sat Mar 22 2008 - 16:38:21 EDT