Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

From: George Murphy <>
Date: Sun Mar 16 2008 - 14:26:31 EDT

MessageDick -

As you know, I don't agree with the way you correlate Mesopotamian history with Gen.1-11. I can, however, appreciate your intent in doing that & can to some extent suspend disbelief & enter into that picture. But I simply think you're overreaching in trying to get any approximation to the Christian concept of the Trinity from Akkadian
(or any other polytheism). & I don't think it adds anything to your basic argument or makes it more plausible.

There is nothing in scripture that suggests that anything about the triune character of God was revealed to Adam, Cain, Enoch, Noah or Abraham or that they know anything about it. Any trinitarian ideas that Christians have seen there (e.g., in Abraham's three visitors in Genesis 18, the traditional Orthodox icon of the Trinity) is a result of reading those texts in the light of the NT. That is in some cases an appropriate or at least acceptable thing for Christians, but it's a very different matter to say that the patriarchs themselves (whether understood as historical persons or literary figures) knew anything about the Trinity. & since that is the case, I find the idea that the Akkadians knew about it not impossible but very far fetched. It would take a lot more than a grouping of three gods - which, as I noted, is far from unique to the Akkadians - to convince me.

This really doesn't have a lot to do with science and religion & I'm quite happy to let it go at that. You may have the last word if you wish.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Dick Fischer
  To: ASA
  Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 1:31 AM
  Subject: RE: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

  1st, I do have something upon which to pose the question as to whether or not the Akkadians had knowledge of the pre-incarnate Christ and the Holy Spirit. We have the words of the Akkadians themselves. Did not the Akkadian "ilu" follow as El in Hebrew and Allah in Islam? Is He not the father-god in heaven who is more remote to humankind? Are not Christ and the Holy Spirit the operative deities among us just as Ea and Enlil were to the Akkadians? Were the Akkadians not also in the Adamic generations? Do you have evidence they knew about quantum mechanics or baseball?


  2nd, the doctrine of the Trinity is specifically about God in three separate, individual personalities. Even had the Akkadians believed exactly that how would they have expressed it in their primitive language?


  3rd, God revealed himself to Adam, Cain, Enoch, Noah and Abraham before Jacob (Israel) was born.


  4th, largely I agree except to say that if the Adamic generations actually lived in this region prior to Abraham, why would it be unthinkable that He revealed himself then in the same way much as today. Plus, you have to chalk it up to some remarkable coincidence that there is such a similarity. No other similarity exists in other parts of the world. Not that you can't find three gods elsewhere, but not with these similarities and we are talking about the same people - Adamites were known as Akkadians, Akkadians were also Adamites.


  Yours faithfully,


  Dick Fischer. author, lecturer

  Historical Genesis from Adam to Abraham


  -----Original Message-----
  From: George Murphy []
  Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 8:56 PM
  To: Dick Fischer; ASA
  Subject: Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?


  1st, you are the one who has nothing on which to base your claim, as you virtually admit when you have to fall back on "who is to say?" "Who is to say" that the Akkadians didn't know about quantum mechanics or play baseball?


  2d, the doctrine of the Trinity is not about "three gods." That in itself rules out claims for the Akkadians, Kelts &c.


  3d, we have to admit the logical possibility that the logos asarkos, the unfleshed Word, was revealed to some people before the Incarnation. But there are at best, as I said earlier, only hints of this in the OT, among the people to whom God had most clearly revealed himself before Jesus. & there is even less in the OT about any threefold character of God. The idea that the Trinity was revealed to some other people (even those who were supposedly "Hebrews in waiting") but not to the people of Israel contradicts statements in the OT that God has revealed Godself pre-eminently to Israel.


  4th, Christian understanding of the Trinity began with the economic Trinity - i.e., God's action as Father, Son and Spirit in relation to the world. Belief in the immanent Trinity - i.e., the threefold character of God within the divine life - developed from that. We know only as much about that inner life of God as God reveals to us, and that revelation is found in the economic Trinity. (N.B., I am not saying that there are two different Trinities.) The notion that the ancient Akkadians knew about the Trinity without knowing about Jesus runs counter to what we in fact know about the way God has revealed Godself.




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Received on Sun Mar 16 14:29:13 2008

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