RE: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

From: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Mar 15 2008 - 16:31:08 EDT

>Some YEC's are indicating greater error than others because they have
greater access to the truth and really ought to know better.
 
And this has been my original point all along, that we as the 21st century
church really should know better. So my frustration is two-fold 1) that the
church by and large does not know better and 2) there is no single place to
go within Protestantism to my knowledge to try to persuade some educated
official church teaching body that should know better to correct this
mistake.
 
It appears that the best we can do is to try to appeal to each individual
denomination if we don't want to let Ken Ham speak for the church at large
because the media willingly allows him to make a fool out of himself and the
rest of us as well. Meanwhile I pay money to send my kids to a Christian
school to have them taught that the earth is 6000 years old and to distrust
modern science and I feel there is nothing I can do about it and no one to
appeal to.
 
And although my original use of the term excommunicate was just hyperbole, I
do think the church and the world would be better served if there was a
strong message introduced by some interdenominational alliance to repudiate
this and serve the YEC leaders notice that they are resisted and they can no
longer hide behind calling their detractors compromisers or unorthodox
liberal theologians. That is what largely RTB has done to their credit but
this really needs to be a broader base of support signed on by all the
denominations.
 
Maybe we should start a petition in each denomination to force them to
address this and take a position on science issues like the age of the earth
and special creation. At least it would let all the pastors know that we are
watching them like the voters do politicians and hold them accountable for
educating themselves on the issues.
 
Thanks
 
John
 
 
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: philtill@aol.com [mailto:philtill@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 10:01 AM
To: gmurphy@raex.com; john_walley@yahoo.com; Gordon.Brown@Colorado.EDU;
asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

On the other hand, the definition of "heresy" has to change with the times.
More truth has been revealed and we are morally responsible for what we do
with it. As an extreme but clear example, there are truths that weren't
revealed until the NT era, which to deny would be an indicator that we don't
know God at all.

I don't think YECism is categorically "heresy" because I'm not convinced the
scientific data are equally accessible to all persons. Therefore, denying
the age of the Earth doesn't categorically indicate that we don't know God.
But surely people who don't have a heart willing to submit to real truth are
committing grave error. Some YEC's are indicating greater error than others
because they have greater access to the truth and really ought to know
better. Ancient YECism was no sin at all since there was no access to the
truth at all. The sin isn't in how much truth we have available to us, but
our willingness to submit to the truths that we do have and what our
response says about the state of our hearts.

Phil

-----Original Message-----
From: George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com>
To: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>; 'gordon brown'
<Gordon.Brown@Colorado.EDU>; asa@calvin.edu
Sent: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 9:02 am
Subject: Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

I have to dissent. Ham's notion that a ~6000 year old earth & "no death
before the fall" are essential to Christianity is nonsense but those are, in
fact, ideas that many - at some times the great majority - of Christians,
including leaders of the church, have held. We can't postumously
anathematize them. While dangerous & disruptive nonsense should be called
what it is & vigorously opposed, it is not necessarily formal heresy.
 
Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
 
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Walley" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
To: "'gordon brown'" <Gordon.Brown@Colorado.EDU>; <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 11:29 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?
 
 
Maybe Ken Ham doesn't technically deny any of the fundamentals that we
otherwise share, but he does add a couple of more of his own, like a 6000
year old earth and no death before the fall which they consider part of the
litmus test for orthodoxy. Which is worse, denying shared fundamentals or
adding burdensome and falsifiable extra fundamentals? The net result is the
same, false and destructive teaching. And the NY speaks very harshly about
this.
 
Granted I would like to give every average church going YEC the benefit of
the doubt and attempt to show them why this is important and hopefully they
wouldn't still insist on it, but in the case of the hardcore ones that
steadfastly refused (like Ham) then I think you have to take action. We see
a pretty good parallel of this in the NT when the Judaizers added to the
gospel the doctrine that they also keep the Jewish law and for which Paul
had a strong rebuke and called "another gospel".
 
Thanks
 
John
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu
<mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu?> ] On
Behalf Of gordon brown
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 10:49 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: RE: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?
 
On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, John Walley wrote:
 
> Bottom line, I feel Protestantism is flawed because there is currently
> no mechanism to excommunicate people like Ellen White, Herbert
> Armstrong and Ken Ham.
 
Excommunicating Ken Ham strikes me as being rather extreme. Ellen White
and Herbert Armstrong founded their own churches because they disagreed
with traditional Christian doctrine concerning the Bible or the Trinity.
Granted, Ham reinforces a popular false stereotype of Christians and the
Bible, and we ought to try to correct that widespread impression, but it
doesn't seem Biblical to me to want to excommunicate someone because he
believes in pseudoscience unless he also denies some fundamental of the
faith. Although he may wish that we who are not YECs could be
excommunicated, we should strive not to let our differences with YECs
prevent fellowship with them.
 
Gordon Brown (ASA member)
 
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Received on Sat Mar 15 16:32:53 2008

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