Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

From: George Murphy <>
Date: Fri Mar 14 2008 - 07:07:32 EDT

MessageI realize that this could take the discussion well out of the science-religion area but it's already going that way.

Infant baptism is not an "obscure, internal doctrinal issue." What is at issue is not just a procedural question about the best time to administer baptism about about whether or not the baptism of an infant is valid. This touches upon essential matters such as whether or not a person is a member of the church.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: John Walley
  To: 'David Opderbeck'
  Cc: 'David F Siemens' ; ;
  Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 11:22 PM
  Subject: RE: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

  But again David, this is the theological relativism I mentioned earlier in my opinion. Excusing YEC and other flawed doctrine is not the answer. Why would Jesus bother to warn us about false teaching then if it didn't matter? Truth does matter and we shouldn't excuse our church leaders for missing it. You recall my analogy before about the spiritual Arlingtons and I think it still holds.

  And as you know we have discussed before offline, these science/faith issues are not just obscure, internal doctrinal issues like infant baptism or speaking in tongues that the world doesn't know or care about, but it is in fact the very definition of objective reality at stake here and when it plays out in the courts and in the global media at the very nexus with the world that Jesus commanded us to make disciples of, I think we have more accountability than to just love everyone. We have to make sure our faith is grounded in reality as well and I really don't think that is too much to ask. The subject of this thread highlights the need for this and the gravity of the consequences of failing at it.

  Plus there are other very practical drivers to getting this right as well. This science/faith arena is the very battleground by which the enemy is using to marginalize and even criminalize Christian faith in our culture. We need to repent of our spiritual pride that has led to this deception In order to prevent engendering further contempt and scorn from those we are called to reach and to keep this from leading to something much worse.



    -----Original Message-----
    From: David Opderbeck []
    Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:32 PM
    To: John Walley
    Cc: David F Siemens;;
    Subject: Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

    John, I understand some of what you're feeling right now. I think, though, we ought to be a little more nuanced in what we say of how the church has handled itself. The church is big. In every period of history since the time of Christ, the church has been faithful in somethings and not so faithful in others. From our perspective the progress can be lurching, painful, and slow -- kind of like someone giving birth. But the Holy Spirit has never left the church. Thank God that today, most Christians around the world are taught to reject racism and antisemitism, to help the poor, to combine the preaching of the gospel with acts of mercy, and so on. The things that in my wisdom I want to become "prefect" right now in the church might not be exactly the things God in His wisdom is putting at the top of the list. Our individual lives are like grass that dries up and blows away, and the Kindgdom of God is a tiny mustard seed, but the "not yet" will come....

    On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 9:10 PM, John Walley <> wrote:

      When Jesus warned of false teachers, that logically implies that there exists true ones. Where to find them is a different issue but Jesus did say that His sheep hear His voice and if we seek the truth we would find it.

      I reject the claims that due to the nuances of much learning, the truth is unknowable because that is counter to the claims of Christ. Also I agree with George that obvious doctrinal error can be sufficiently filtered out easily enough by plain common sense, spiritual discernment and testable science.

      Granted we will all have unlearning to do on judgment day but the real tragedy is that false learning came at the expense of not learning what we should have and what God called us to. And I think that will be in large part for a lot of people due to the fact that the church absolved herself of this responsibility.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: [] On Behalf Of David F Siemens
        Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 10:09 AM

        Subject: Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

        There are several conflicting magisteria, like Ellen G. White, prophetess of the Seventh Day Adventists; Herbert Armstrong who had headquarters in Pasadena, CA. There are other theological traditions that are held within the several denominations, including the now abandoned Missouri Synod anti-Copernicanism. Since serious Bible students differ on the Eucharist and Baptism (back to the time of the Reformation), where will you find this magisterium? The fact is that, when we stand before the Lord, we'll have things to unlearn, even among those of us who are certain they are right.
        Dave (ASA)

        On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:29:25 -0400 "John Walley" <> writes:

          I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one and this same conclusion has been my key takeaway from my recent OEC-TE journey. The church needs more of an emphasis on what are reasonable and allowable interpretations of the Bible (after getting it right first of course) and that would diffuse a lot of this "private interpretation" nonsense that leads to this disaster and others.

          I think we need the office of the Majesterium restored to the church and that was one unfortunate casualty of the Reformation and we are suffering as a result of it. Ironically, I think the closest thing that I have found that approaches this function in the church today is this list. There may be better examples out there cloistered away in church hierarchy somewhere but not easily accessible to the general seeking public to my knowledge.

          Today's Protestantism is afflicted with the intellectual equivalent of moral relativism in our culture. We have intellectual or spiritual relativism where every idea is equal including YEC and it is politically incorrect and unacceptable to correct it. This denies the truth that there is an absolute right and wrong and that we should have it or be looking for it and have a way to know it when we do find it.

          I think it will take a removal of all the complicit pastors from their roles and it will take a new generation of leadership in the church but I am hopeful that we will see it soon as I feel that is what the Holy Spirit is trying to do.



    David W. Opderbeck
    Associate Professor of Law
    Seton Hall University Law School
    Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology

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Received on Fri Mar 14 07:09:54 2008

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