RE: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

From: John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu Mar 13 2008 - 23:22:39 EDT

But again David, this is the theological relativism I mentioned earlier in
my opinion. Excusing YEC and other flawed doctrine is not the answer. Why
would Jesus bother to warn us about false teaching then if it didn't matter?
Truth does matter and we shouldn't excuse our church leaders for missing it.
You recall my analogy before about the spiritual Arlingtons and I think it
still holds.
 
And as you know we have discussed before offline, these science/faith issues
are not just obscure, internal doctrinal issues like infant baptism or
speaking in tongues that the world doesn't know or care about, but it is in
fact the very definition of objective reality at stake here and when it
plays out in the courts and in the global media at the very nexus with the
world that Jesus commanded us to make disciples of, I think we have more
accountability than to just love everyone. We have to make sure our faith is
grounded in reality as well and I really don't think that is too much to
ask. The subject of this thread highlights the need for this and the gravity
of the consequences of failing at it.
 
Plus there are other very practical drivers to getting this right as well.
This science/faith arena is the very battleground by which the enemy is
using to marginalize and even criminalize Christian faith in our culture. We
need to repent of our spiritual pride that has led to this deception In
order to prevent engendering further contempt and scorn from those we are
called to reach and to keep this from leading to something much worse.
 
Thanks
 
John
 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Opderbeck [mailto:dopderbeck@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:32 PM
To: John Walley
Cc: David F Siemens; gmurphy@raex.com; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

John, I understand some of what you're feeling right now. I think, though,
we ought to be a little more nuanced in what we say of how the church has
handled itself. The church is big. In every period of history since the
time of Christ, the church has been faithful in somethings and not so
faithful in others. From our perspective the progress can be lurching,
painful, and slow -- kind of like someone giving birth. But the Holy Spirit
has never left the church. Thank God that today, most Christians around the
world are taught to reject racism and antisemitism, to help the poor, to
combine the preaching of the gospel with acts of mercy, and so on. The
things that in my wisdom I want to become "prefect" right now in the church
might not be exactly the things God in His wisdom is putting at the top of
the list. Our individual lives are like grass that dries up and blows away,
and the Kindgdom of God is a tiny mustard seed, but the "not yet" will
come....

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 9:10 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

When Jesus warned of false teachers, that logically implies that there
exists true ones. Where to find them is a different issue but Jesus did say
that His sheep hear His voice and if we seek the truth we would find it.
 
I reject the claims that due to the nuances of much learning, the truth is
unknowable because that is counter to the claims of Christ. Also I agree
with George that obvious doctrinal error can be sufficiently filtered out
easily enough by plain common sense, spiritual discernment and testable
science.
 
Granted we will all have unlearning to do on judgment day but the real
tragedy is that false learning came at the expense of not learning what we
should have and what God called us to. And I think that will be in large
part for a lot of people due to the fact that the church absolved herself of
this responsibility.
 
John

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of David F Siemens
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 10:09 AM
To: john_walley@yahoo.com
Cc: gmurphy@raex.com; asa@calvin.edu

Subject: Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

There are several conflicting magisteria, like Ellen G. White, prophetess of
the Seventh Day Adventists; Herbert Armstrong who had headquarters in
Pasadena, CA. There are other theological traditions that are held within
the several denominations, including the now abandoned Missouri Synod
anti-Copernicanism. Since serious Bible students differ on the Eucharist and
Baptism (back to the time of the Reformation), where will you find this
magisterium? The fact is that, when we stand before the Lord, we'll have
things to unlearn, even among those of us who are certain they are right.
Dave (ASA)
 
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:29:25 -0400 "John Walley" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
writes:

George,
 
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one and this same conclusion has
been my key takeaway from my recent OEC-TE journey. The church needs more of
an emphasis on what are reasonable and allowable interpretations of the
Bible (after getting it right first of course) and that would diffuse a lot
of this "private interpretation" nonsense that leads to this disaster and
others.
 
I think we need the office of the Majesterium restored to the church and
that was one unfortunate casualty of the Reformation and we are suffering as
a result of it. Ironically, I think the closest thing that I have found that
approaches this function in the church today is this list. There may be
better examples out there cloistered away in church hierarchy somewhere but
not easily accessible to the general seeking public to my knowledge.
 
Today's Protestantism is afflicted with the intellectual equivalent of moral
relativism in our culture. We have intellectual or spiritual relativism
where every idea is equal including YEC and it is politically incorrect and
unacceptable to correct it. This denies the truth that there is an absolute
right and wrong and that we should have it or be looking for it and have a
way to know it when we do find it.
 
I think it will take a removal of all the complicit pastors from their roles
and it will take a new generation of leadership in the church but I am
hopeful that we will see it soon as I feel that is what the Holy Spirit is
trying to do.
 
Thanks
 
John
 

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology 
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Received on Thu Mar 13 23:24:46 2008

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