Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?

From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
Date: Thu Mar 13 2008 - 21:31:51 EDT

John, I understand some of what you're feeling right now. I think, though,
we ought to be a little more nuanced in what we say of how the church has
handled itself. The church is big. In every period of history since the
time of Christ, the church has been faithful in somethings and not so
faithful in others. From our perspective the progress can be lurching,
painful, and slow -- kind of like someone giving birth. But the Holy Spirit
has never left the church. Thank God that today, most Christians around the
world are taught to reject racism and antisemitism, to help the poor, to
combine the preaching of the gospel with acts of mercy, and so on. The
things that in my wisdom I want to become "prefect" right now in the church
might not be exactly the things God in His wisdom is putting at the top of
the list. Our individual lives are like grass that dries up and blows away,
and the Kindgdom of God is a tiny mustard seed, but the "not yet" will
come....

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 9:10 PM, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:

> When Jesus warned of false teachers, that logically implies that there
> exists true ones. Where to find them is a different issue but Jesus did say
> that His sheep hear His voice and if we seek the truth we would find it.
>
> I reject the claims that due to the nuances of much learning, the truth is
> unknowable because that is counter to the claims of Christ. Also I agree
> with George that obvious doctrinal error can be sufficiently filtered out
> easily enough by plain common sense, spiritual discernment and testable
> science.
>
> Granted we will all have unlearning to do on judgment day but the real
> tragedy is that false learning came at the expense of not learning what we
> should have and what God called us to. And I think that will be in large
> part for a lot of people due to the fact that the church absolved herself of
> this responsibility.
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *David F Siemens
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 13, 2008 10:09 AM
> *To:* john_walley@yahoo.com
> *Cc:* gmurphy@raex.com; asa@calvin.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] Why couldn't you write your d*mn book more clearly?
>
> There are several conflicting magisteria, like Ellen G. White,
> prophetess of the Seventh Day Adventists; Herbert Armstrong who had
> headquarters in Pasadena, CA. There are other theological traditions that
> are held within the several denominations, including the now abandoned
> Missouri Synod anti-Copernicanism. Since serious Bible students differ on
> the Eucharist and Baptism (back to the time of the Reformation), where will
> you find this magisterium? The fact is that, when we stand before the Lord,
> we'll have things to unlearn, even among those of us who are certain they
> are right.
> Dave (ASA)
>
> On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 08:29:25 -0400 "John Walley" <john_walley@yahoo.com>
> writes:
>
> George,
>
> I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one and this same conclusion has
> been my key takeaway from my recent OEC-TE journey. The church needs more of
> an emphasis on what are reasonable and allowable interpretations of the
> Bible (after getting it right first of course) and that would diffuse a lot
> of this "private interpretation" nonsense that leads to this disaster and
> others.
>
> I think we need the office of the Majesterium restored to the church and
> that was one unfortunate casualty of the Reformation and we are suffering as
> a result of it. Ironically, I think the closest thing that I have found that
> approaches this function in the church today is this list. There may be
> better examples out there cloistered away in church hierarchy somewhere but
> not easily accessible to the general seeking public to my knowledge.
>
> Today's Protestantism is afflicted with the intellectual equivalent of
> moral relativism in our culture. We have intellectual or spiritual
> relativism where every idea is equal including YEC and it is politically
> incorrect and unacceptable to correct it. This denies the truth that there
> is an absolute right and wrong and that we should have it or be looking for
> it and have a way to know it when we do find it.
>
> I think it will take a removal of all the complicit pastors from their
> roles and it will take a new generation of leadership in the church but I am
> hopeful that we will see it soon as I feel that is what the Holy Spirit is
> trying to do.
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>
>

-- 
David W. Opderbeck
Associate Professor of Law
Seton Hall University Law School
Gibbons Institute of Law, Science & Technology
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Received on Thu Mar 13 21:33:14 2008

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