Re: [asa] repeat request

From: Janice Matchett <janmatch@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed Oct 31 2007 - 13:07:11 EDT

At 12:46 PM 10/31/2007, Janice Matchett wrote:
>At 12:27 PM 10/31/2007, George Murphy wrote:
>>I sent this "cry for help" yesterday but it doesn't seem to have gotten out.
>>
>>I could use some assistance rather quickly. I
>>know that there's a passage in Augustine's
>>Literal Interpretation of Genesis in which he
>>says in essence that we should whenever
>>possible interpret scripture in a way that is
>>consistent with our natural knowledge of the
>>world. Unfortunately I don't have this work of
>>his available. Can anybody give me (a) a more
>>precise reference & (b) if possible, the actual
>>text or a website where I can find it?
>>
>>Shalom
>>George
>><http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/>http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

@ Below are just a couple of links I found at google:

Results 1 - 10 of about 30,500 for
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/usually%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNHss08arspJEJEgaue2AbIrO4cLrw>Usually,
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/even%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNHkniONjUrh-Lr1NqjKXezBd7CPdw>even
a
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/non-%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNEUOm_nSJ2p8k-90r-0qocdEe6hqA>non-<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/christian%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNELq-DuGAnJHSjkab0A1N62-NZWqA>Christian
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/knows%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNF9Qg6bsCRIBith41v03VtDzAZBxg>knows
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/something%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNEsA1wdmDoUSu3YEftTCB8k-2mlsA>something
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/about%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNH2OzxkSJwpOLV9nEZyJJ_s8ZspSA>about
the
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/earth%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNEAC0HHJerGn-bER4Ovxg8R1-RRBA>earth,
the
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/heavens%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNEortXci--xAtmHXb2wKfeWpCL9SA>heavens,
and the
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/other%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNFsHkfz9gsAw9e-UgXVy93_Q9U0hg>other
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/elements%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNG42kPkuZ7FXo6cYU-k-Trd-FYkSw>elements
of this
<http://www.google.com//url?sa=X&oi=dict&q=http://www.answers.com/world%26r%3D67&usg=AFQjCNH12m5fqyhXtRXXPMI0UpUi-3lZPg>world
augustine. (0.24 seconds)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Usually%2C+even+a+non-Christian+knows+something+about+the+earth%2C+the+heavens%2C+and+the+other+elements+of+this+world+augustine&btnG=Google+Search

  Augustine (1982) The Literal Meaning of
Genesis, Vol. 1, (trns. J. H. Taylor) pp 42f, New
York: Paulist Press [commenced by Augustine AD 401]

Mike Poole
SMSC Resources
http://www.smsc.org.uk/resources/features/evolution.htm

"....It is often overlooked by ‘Young Earth’
advocates that, even before Darwin published his
Origin of Species in 1859, scientists as well as
Christians holding a high regard for the Bible,
accepted that the Earth was very old indeed.
Early Church Fathers such as Origen (born c. 185
AD) and Augustine (354-430 AD), long before
modern geology developed, had understood the
references to ‘days’ as intended by the writer in a figurative manner:

"What man of intelligence, I ask, will consider
as a reasonable statement that the first and the
second and the third day, in which there are said
to be both morning and evening, existed without
sun and moon and stars, while the first day was
even without a heaven? … I do not think anyone
will doubt that these are figurative expressions." [Origen]

"Christians should not talk nonsense to
unbelievers … Usually, even a non-Christian knows
something about the earth, the heavens, and the
other elements of this world … and this knowledge
he holds to as being certain from reason and
experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and
dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a
Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy
Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and
we should take all means to prevent such an
embarrassing situation, in which people show up
vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn." [Augustine3]

Evolution not a threat to faith [snip]

*

 From this web site: http://austringer.net/wp/?p=622

(St. Augustine, “De Genesi ad litteram libri
duodecim” (The Literal Meaning of Genesis))

I have, by the way, been trying off and on for
some time now to fill in the ellipses in the
above quote, so far without success. If anyone
can clear that up, please let me know.

Update: Glenn Branch sent me
<http://www.pibburns.com/augustin.htm>a link to a fuller quotation:

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something
about the earth, the heavens, and the other
elements of this world, about the motion and
orbit of the stars and even their size and
relative positions, about the predictable
eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the
years and the seasons, about the kinds of
animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this
knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason
and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and
dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a
Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy
Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and
we should take all means to prevent such an
embarrassing situation, in which people show up
vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to
scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant
individual is derided, but that people outside
the household of faith think our sacred writers
held such opinions, and, to the great loss of
those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of
our Scripture are criticized and rejected as
unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken
in a field which they themselves know well and
hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about
our books, how are they going to believe those
books in matters concerning the resurrection of
the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the
kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages
are full of falsehoods and on facts which they
themselves have learnt from experience and the
light of reason? Reckless and incompetent
expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble
and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are
caught in one of their mischievous false opinions
and are taken to task by those who are not bound
by the authority of our sacred books. For then,
to defend their utterly foolish and obviously
untrue statements, they will try to call upon
Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from
memory many passages which they think support
their position, although they understand neither
what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]

    * on 27 Jun 2007 at 10:32 am
1.<http://www.ooblick.com/weblog/>arensb said
The version I have in my quotes file reads:

    Usually, even a non-Christian knows something
about the earth, the heavens, and the other
elements of this world, about the motion and
orbit of the stars and even their size and
relative positions, about the predictable
eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the
years and the seasons, about the kinds of
animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this
knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason
and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and
dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a
Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy
Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and
we should take all means to prevent such an
embarrassing situation, in which people show up
vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to
scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant
individual is derided, but that people outside
the household of faith think our sacred writers
held such opinions, and, to the great loss of
those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of
our Scripture are criticized and rejected as
unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken
in a field which they themselves know well and
hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about
our books, how are they going to believe those
books in matters concerning the resurrection of
the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the
kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages
are full of falsehoods and on facts which they
themselves have learnt from experience and the
light of reason? Reckless and incompetent
expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble
and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are
caught in one of their mischievous false opinions
and are taken to task by those who are not bound
by the authority of our sacred books. For then,
to defend their utterly foolish and obviously
untrue statements, they will try to call upon
Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from
memory many passages which they think support
their position, although _they understand neither
what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.
     Augustine, De Genesi ad litteram: 1.19.39
translated by J.H. Taylor, Ancient Christian
Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41

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Received on Wed Oct 31 13:08:07 2007

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