Re: [asa] four rivers in Eden

From: <>
Date: Sun Oct 28 2007 - 20:27:52 EDT

Thanks, Dick.  This is helpful.


Do you have references to original source material for the evolution of Gihon to Gyudes, and then for the renaming of that to Karkeh?  (I'm wondering how well attested this connection is.)

I couldn't find the video from your talk on the website.  Where is it found?


-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Fischer <>
To: ASA <>
Sent: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:55 am
Subject: RE: [asa] four rivers in Eden

On my web page is an eleven minute streaming video of a talk I gave at Eastern Mennonite University.  That was the context of this portion of the talk.  Specifically, the Cushites, descended from Noah’s grandson originally took the area in Iran known today as Khuzistan from where the Kassites came.  The Gihon evolved to the “Gyudes” and was renamed the Karkeh in more recent times.


What makes placing the descendants of Noah difficult with any finite precision is that they didn’t always stay put.  Remember Abraham?  We know of his travels from Mesopotamia to the land of Canaan due to the author of Genesis taking pains to tell us exactly where he went.  But the other lines of descent, although we know somewhat where they went initially, traveled around due to wars and whatnot.  The fierce Assyrians frequently pounded their neighbors forcing them to relocate.  Josephus apparently was thrown off track and suggested the Nile River as the Gihon due to later Cushite migrations who took their river with them when they went!


Dick Fischer

Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association

Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History



-----Original Message-----
From: [] On Behalf Of
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:01 AM
Subject: [asa] four rivers in Eden


Have the identities of the two lesser-known rivers in the Garden of Eden been correlated very well with any dry river beds or canals in Mesopotamia, or any other such geographical feature anywhere in the Middle East?

I sometimes wonder because one of the rivers was said to snake around the entire land of Kush.  A land called Kush was well known to the people of Moses' time and especially to people who had been living in Egypt, which bordered and traded with this land of Kush.  Furthermore, the Nile follows a 270 degree arc that literally goes around the land of Kush.  So if there was a river in Eden said to go all around the land of Kush, then how could the Jews at the time of the Exodus understand it to be anything other than the Nile?  Why would Moses refer to a different land of Kush without distinguishing it from the one that was well known just south of Egypt?

Futhermore, the river Ceyhan that goes through the land of the Hittites sound phonetically equivalent to the river Gihon in the garden.  I sometimes wonder if these four rivers were allegorically representing civilizations in general -- Ceyhon through the Hittites, Pishon (Nile?) through Kush and Egypt, Tigris through Assyria and Euphrates through Babylon.


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Received on Sun Oct 28 20:28:47 2007

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