Re: [asa] Design Inference Mixed with Faith WAS Stupid/Dumb Science and Intelligent/Intelligence Science

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>
Date: Mon Oct 22 2007 - 00:13:16 EDT

This totally confuses what is observed and interpreted. Perhaps you can
recall the face that was seen on Mars--very clearly looking in the first
pictures as if somebody had deliberately carved a giant face. Some touted
it as proof of intelligent life on Mars. With the light at a different
angle, it was seen to be no more than a fortuitous collection of humps
and hollows, not the product of an ancient civilization. What we see of
flagella and cilia look as though they were designed to move cells or to
move something past cells. The secular scientists see this purpose or
use, but do not conclude that they were designed. Since no one observed
them being placed on cells without them, as wheels with pneumatic tires
were placed on cars and trucks (though I remember seeing trucks with
solid rubber tires), and since there are rational, if partial,
explanations for their development through secondary causes, the
appearance of design has no relevance, none greater than the "proof" some
cited from the Martian face. But perhaps a better example is the "proof"
of a Martian civilization from the many serious observations of the
canals. Anybody want to compare the early maps with the current
photographs from Mars landers and orbiters?

Note that for ID to be true, it is necessary to determine that there
CANNOT ever be explanations for the development of cilia, flagella, blood
clotting, and all the rest of the structures proposed as designed that
are natural. Unless one can demonstrate a contradiction, as in a
/reductio ad absurdum/, an impossibility proof is considered hopeless.
Dave (ASA)

On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:06:39 -0400 "John Walley" <>

>Design" or "appearance of design" has no theological significance

I don’t understand how you can say this. Either we observe design or we
don’t. And to answer Pim’s question about appealing to secular
scientists, the fact that they admit it as well (albeit without
attributing it to God) establishes objectively that design exists and it
is not just an overactive imagination of Dembski or Behe. Once
established, the only question remaining is how it got there, and that is
where the parallel with the Pharisees come in.

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Received on Mon Oct 22 00:17:07 2007

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