Re: [asa] Design Inference Mixed with Faith WAS Stupid/Dumb Science and Intelligent/Intelligence Science

From: <mlucid@aol.com>
Date: Sun Oct 21 2007 - 15:13:05 EDT

 Bravo.? Some really nice insight on the disservice ID does to its own, but I
have one little peevish point to make.? In the following quote:

"An interesting approach, however the question now becomes, who are the
Pharisees who are denying God's Creation by placing His contributions
in ever narrowing gaps of our knowledge?"

You refer to the "ever narrowing gaps of our knowledge" and I think this
phrase diminishes an aspect of rational knowledge that may do us some
good to keep in mind. While we are always narrowing gaps within the
body of human knowledge we are also constantly expanding the sphere of our
investigations as well, and whole new fields open up with whole new honeycombs
of gaps of their own to deal with. In this way, I think there will always be room
for the self-destructive ID strategy which you address above will forever reapply
for consideration if we don't find a mutually agreeable, evolve-able way to
address the respective jurisdictions of science and religion.

In other words, I think it would serve us well to presume that the gaps in our
knowledge are intrinsic and that the unknown will eternally surround and underpin
our body of knowledge in the same way it always has. We should keep in mind
that the unknown has always been the jurisdiction of our faith and try to find a
way to inspire the faithful with our understanding of the character of the unknown
as it permeates and surrounds what we know.

-Mike

On 10/21/07, John Walley <john_walley@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Also the Pharisees denying the divine source of Jesus' miracles and instead
> attributing them to Beelzebub was the context in which Jesus warned His
> disciples of the grave consequences of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I
> contend that it shouldn't be that hard to see that the enemy's plans today
> are the same as then, to take the obvious spiritual truth of God being
> manifest in His creation and with enough nuance and spin and pride and
> arrogance, can convince people to reject this and replace it instead with
> naturalistic abiogenesis and multiple universes and other such foolishness.
>

 Who is doing damage to
Christian credibility (St Augustine) by making 'foolish' assertions
about science? Can your God not survive abiogenesis or the findings of
multiple universes? Perhaps we should ask ourselves, are we not aiding
and abetting our "enemies", does the end justify the means and remind
ourselves of St Augustine's warning.

As a reminder, ID claims that 'design' is nothing more than that which
remains when we eliminate known pathways as likely, but rather than
calling it 'we don't know' ID insists on calling it something more
which causes much confusion amongst its followers as they naturally
equate design with Design.
When science, as is the case for the flagella, finds plausible
scenarios, ID has opened up Christianity to powerful forces that can
point to the falsification of 'design'. The potential damage of flawed
scientific teachings as a foundation for Christianity is self evident
in YEC and extends logically to ID.
Once we accept that science is limited in what it can address, can we
avoid such "foolishness" of trying to use science to find our god(s).
Yes, I am using the plural since the multiple designer hypothesis has
already been proposed as a better explanation that a single designer.
Is that the kind of science we want to be taught to our children?

As to the flawed analogies with Jesus and miracles, it is sufficient
to point out that neither you nor I and not even Dembski or Behe are
Jesus, and thus those denying Dembski or Behe may not necessarily be
denying Jesus, in fact, they may be strongly supporting Jesus and
Christian faith. Sure, ID is being attacked by atheists but also many
Christians, so it is hard to argue that ID is attacked by our
philosophical enemies alone. What ID has done however is handed
powerful weapons to its own philosophical enemies. As a Christian I
have no problem pointing out the scientific infertility of ID as well
as the dangerous theology that follows from it.

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Received on Sun Oct 21 15:14:21 2007

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