RE: [asa] Denver RATE Conference (Thousands...Not Billions)_Part 6 & The End

From: Alexanian, Moorad <>
Date: Thu Oct 11 2007 - 14:38:24 EDT

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is
a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --A.


I tend towards the latter.




From: [] On
Behalf Of George Murphy
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:35 PM
To: Jon Tandy;
Subject: Re: [asa] Denver RATE Conference (Thousands...Not
Billions)_Part 6 & The End


What is to be criticized is not belief in miracles but the idea that you
can appeal to miracles & then pretend that you've given a scientific


As to the last sentence: The popular presentations of RATE are all that
the great majority of YEC laypeople & clergy will read. (& a lot of
them will just rely on word of mouth that "Bible believing scientists"
have shown that the earth is young.) The RATE people know that, & if
they don't point out the scientific difficulties in the popular
presentations then they are deliberately deceiving people.



        ----- Original Message -----

        From: Jon Tandy <>


        Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 10:30 AM

        Subject: RE: [asa] Denver RATE Conference (Thousands...Not
Billions)_Part 6 & The End


        I think it's a bit precarious arguing against the invocation of
"miracle" when presenting this to a popular Christian audience. "You're
a Christian, and you don't believe in miracles?" they will ask.


        I believe we need to be clear in such discussions that as
Christians, we believe in the possibility of God doing miracles which
are beyond any human explanation. The point here, though, is
truthfulness. It is disingenuous to say "science proves" Young-Earth
Creation, when in the end it's not science that proves it, but rather
some highly contrived and speculative miraculous events that are neither
witnessed in the scriptural record nor by any observable evidence. If
you want to believe that "God did it" in a certain way, and ignore the
scientific evidence, then at least be honest and admit this is a purely
theological conclusion. I don't believe God is going to condemn a
person who is ignorant of the scientific facts and simply chooses to
believe a theological assertion of God as Creator. However, lying about
what science actually "proves" is not something a Christian should do.
If one is going to claim a scientifically verifiable explanation (or
even invoke an unproved hypothesis), then there needs to be a forthright
acknowledgement of the scientific evidence or lack thereof.


        It seems that the popular presentations of RATE is where this
really becomes a problem, even though the technical volumes admit the
scientific difficulties.



        Jon Tandy


                -----Original Message-----
[] On Behalf Of George Murphy
                Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:36 AM
                To: Randy Isaac;
                Subject: Re: [asa] Denver RATE Conference
(Thousands...Not Billions)_Part 6 & The End

                Like others, I agree with Randy's evaluation. I would
point out though that the reliance on "divine intervention" - i.e.,
miracle - has been clear in this most recent phase of YEC claims even
before the RATE project began. In Starlight & Time Humphreys had to say
that God somehow brought about an enormous expansion of space during the
creation week. As I've said before, natural processes plus a miracle =
a miracle as far as scientific explanation is concerned. Humphreys'
cosmology and the RATE project (together or separately) are precisely,
without remainder, in the category of the famous "Then a miracle occurs"
cartoon - i.e., they are a joke as far as science is concerned.



                        ----- Original Message -----

                        From: Randy Isaac


                        Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:19 PM

                        Subject: Re: [asa] Denver RATE Conference
(Thousands...Not Billions)_Part 6 & The End




                        Most of all, note the reliance on "divine
interpretation." This is perhaps the clearest statement yet from ICR/CRS
that known scientific concepts are not consistent with the young-earth
position. In my article, I focused on the deception of those who claim
RATE concluded that science has shown the young-earth position to be
credible while the actual technical report states clearly that there are
unresolved problems that cannot be solved by any known scientific
process. I did circulate my article to the Creation Research Society
board of directors prior to publication, with no response. It is now
interesting that DeYoung essentially admits that the young-earth
advocate cannot close the loop with science but needs to fall back on
"divine intervention." In so doing, he has been truthful in reporting
the failure of RATE to settle the issue of the age of the earth
scientifically. If the audience left the conference thinking that RATE
had demonstrated the scientific feasibility of a young earth, then that
was merely what they wanted to hear--they were told factually that
"divine intervention" must be invoked.





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Received on Thu Oct 11 14:41:36 2007

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