Re: [asa] Behe's Math... was Arrogance

From: David Opderbeck <>
Date: Fri Aug 31 2007 - 09:26:58 EDT

Don't get me wrong. Listening to criticism is important. "Sitting in the
seat of the scornful," however, is a disaster, as scripture makes clear.
There is a balance in this that maybe isn't always so easy to obtain.

On 8/30/07, Gregory Arago <> wrote:
> Hello David,
> The issue is not whether or not paying attention to criticism is
> useful. (Of course it is, and I do it also as you do.) Pim has never
> repented from his excesses and will not, from all appearances, admit of
> anything, let me say it louder, ANYTHING positive about intelligent design
> theory or the movement of scholars and scientists associated with ID, many
> of whom are Christians. He simply condemns them across the board as ignorant
> and worse, as deceptive. I for one disagree, and further have challenged Pim
> on his 'universal evolutionism.' He has never, not once repented or
> expressed a glimpse of humility, but rather flaunted Science as if it (and
> he as its messenger) holds all the answers of the meaning, purpose and value
> of human existence (using St. Augustine as his personal theological
> message).
> My question remains unanswered: why continue to highlight critics of ID
> who are anti-theists, even for their 'scientific' value, if it contradicts
> the cause of Christendom? Why not highlight the work of Christian scholars
> and scientists on the topic of altruism instead of socio-biologists and
> evolutionary psychologists? Again, why not? It is one thing to be kept
> abreast of criticisms from anti-theists and another thing to use those views
> as a platform for one's own obviously obsessive criticisms of intelligent
> design theories. I must agree with those here who ask why Pim doesn't
> actually contribute something instead of propogandizing the criticisms of
> others. Even if he doesn't agree with Meyers, Dawkins and Avalos, where is
> Pim's contribution to knowledge? Can ASA not call Pim to account instead of
> listening to repetitive criticisms which have been heard ad nauseam as
> nothing more than anti-ID plus news about anti-ID and nothing more? Instead,
> if he should commit a positive Christian contribution, it would likely be
> welcomed.
> Sincerely,
> Gregory
> *David Opderbeck <>* wrote:
> I'm going to partly agree with Pim here. It is useful for us to pay
> attention to criticism and sometimes to repent of things that have lead to
> legitimate criticism (see Merold Westphal's "Suspicion & Faith: The
> Religious Uses of Atheism" for some good examples of this).
> But there is a difference between listening to and learning from critics
> and lacking discernment when critics are making arguments that are
> overreaching and unfair or endorsing the critics' ultimate conclusions.
> It's one thing to let folks like Meyers, Dawkins and Avalos provoke
> reflection; it's another to essentially agree with their twisted assessment
> of Christianity and religious faith.
> On 8/30/07, PvM <> wrote:
> >
> > The real question is do YOU NOT visit such places to understand 'the
> > rest of the story'? But regardless of the anti-theistic nature of
> > Myers, his blog contains excellent contributions to science.
> >
> > As to your final question, the answer is simple: Not enough time and
> > priority.
> >
> > What I find interesting is how a posting in which I show the vacuity
> > of Behe's claims, somehow is turned into a whining session about them
> > mean atheists. Come on guys, is this the best we can do when
> > confronted with this 'nonsense' by Christians?
> >
> > John Walley asks
> >
> > <quote>I'm curious, in your worldview, is this a good thing and is
> > this the logical outcome for our kids from having an understanding of
> > true science free from religious prejudices and the scientific vacuity
> > of ID?
> >
> > As a Christian Pim, do you not feel the need to also counter some of
> > the atheist prejudices of PZ and others? Would you consider that this
> > is a symptom of moral or spiritual vacuity and what should we do about
> > this in our society?
> > </quote>
> >
> > I am not sure what atheist prejudices you have in mind. I do not care
> > too much about what atheists have to say about religion, why should I.
> > Is Skatje's decision to start a atheistic-humanistic club at her
> > university a good thing or even a logical outcome ? Certainly the
> > scientific vacuity of ID may lead some to come to flawed conclusions
> > about Christianity but in the end, Christianity has nothing to fear of
> > science. Is it a logical outcome, perhaps, it is a necessary outcome,
> > of course not.
> > My focus at this moment is on science, and the cost to science (and
> > faith) of actions of Christians.
> >
> > Examples include global warming and the human cause deniers, who seem
> > to be intent on ignoring good science in favor of ... what exactly?
> > Other examples include YECism, and most varieties of intelligent
> > design.
> > Or in this thread, the embarassing actions of Janice who seems to
> > have abandoned any attempt to portray herself as a Christian.
> > Is it worth it Janice?
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/30/07, Gregory Arago <> wrote:
> > > Do you actually visit such places on the internet that put out
> > anti-theistic
> > > rhetoric regularly PIM? You still haven't taken up my challenge to
> > give
> > > voice to Christian views of altruism instead of those of
> > sociobiologists and
> > > evolutionary psychologists. One might wonder: why not?
> > >
> >
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> >
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Received on Fri Aug 31 09:27:26 2007

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