Re: [asa] The Message

From: Iain Strachan <igd.strachan@gmail.com>
Date: Fri Aug 17 2007 - 03:00:39 EDT

Vernon,

I replied briefly to you offline last night. I will now give my public
response to the list.

This is a lamentable piece of sanctimonious preaching, and perfectly
illustrates the point I was trying to make.

I have always believed that the numerical patterns you have found in Gen 1:1
and also in John 1:1 are deliberate and intentional.

However, I think it is utterly wrong to use them as a kind of battering ram
so somehow shame people into rejecting the theory of evolution, which is
not, as you suggest, a "master". We have been over this ground before, and
you're not giving any evidence of having listened.

I will henceforth answer no more questions or challenges that you direct at
me, so don't even waste your time trying. Your form of spiritual blackmail
is totally unacceptable and has lost you any support you once had from me.
I used to protest vehemently at the way your discoveries were not taken
seriously by the rest of the listmembers. My sympathies are now with them,
because it seems that they, long ago reached the same point of utter
exasperation that I have now reached.

Iain

On 8/16/07, Vernon Jenkins <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> Iain,
>
> In reply to my recent questions,
>
> " A short while ago you countered Peter's comment "Mythical Adam, literal
> Christ doesn't add up" with the _OK button/Enter key_ metaphor. I gather,
> then, that you believe in a _mythical_ Adam. May I therefor inquire about
> his descendants - the Antediluvian Patriarchs - listed in Genesis 5. Are
> they also, in your view, mythical? And what about Adam's son, Abel, whom the
> Lord clearly supposed was a _real person_ (Mt.23:35, Lk.11:51)? Was the
> Lord misguided in his belief?"
>
> you wrote,
>
> "That's a difficult question to answer because we don't know. Christ may
> have been referring to these people figuratively, just as I might talk about
> what happened to Frodo, or Alice in Wonderland, or Christopher Robin as if
> they were real people, which doesn't imply that I actually believe they were
> real.
> "I do not know about the historicity of Adam and the antedeluvian
> patriarchs. I think the most likely explanation is that they may well have
> been real historical characters, about which little was known, but to whom
> legends became attached, and acquired important meanings for us.
>
> "My point about the OK button (metaphor) and the Enter key (literal) is
> that even everyday language has different levels of meaning, and can't
> necessarily be taken literally. Like when you say "my feet are killing me"
> do you mean it literally? Or "I've 101 things to do today". Or even "I'm
> starving - my stomach thinks my throat's cut". "
>
> My response:
>
> Iain,
>
> I find your answer to these questions most depressing. You may remember,
> our Lord warned that "No man can serve two masters...". Why? Because the
> inevitable outcome is that "he will hold to (or love) the one, and despise
> (or hate) the other."(Mt.6:24) Can't you see that Darwinism behaves as a
> _cuckoo_ in the Christian 'nest'. Its inevitable characteristic, once
> installed, is to dominate and dictate the agenda in respect of what may, or
> may not, be accepted of the Judeo- Christian Scriptures. Thus, you have
> unwittingly become an accomplice of those forces whose declared aim is the
> destruction of the God's Word! If you can't trust the Lord in respect of
> Abel - whose father, Adam, must also have been 'flesh and blood' - what is
> there left of his (the Lord's) teaching that you can trust?!
>
> A favourite hymn of mine has the refrain, "On Christ, the solid rock, I
> stand; all other ground is sinking sand."
>
> Iain, in my view, you are forsaking the safety of that rock in order to
> placate a theory born of atheism. This can hardly be a sensible course
> for any Christian.
>
> Vernon
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Iain Strachan <igd.strachan@gmail.com>
> *To:* Vernon Jenkins <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>
> *Cc:* asa@calvin.edu
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:25 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [asa] The Message
>
> Vernon,
>
>
> On 8/15/07, Vernon Jenkins <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net> wrote:
> >
> > Iain,
> >
> > All who look to Jesus for salvation will surely accept the words of the
> > Apostle Paul, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;... "
> > (Romans 3:23) - hence they will hardly be _insulted_ by my words.
> >
>
> No-one questions Romans 3:23. But what you're saying is that a specific
> instance of this is the (almost) universal opposition to your particular
> findings. You believe it to be objective evidence - others don't, and
> instead of listening to their objections and finding reasoned responses, all
> you seem to do is imply that they are mentally deficient. In fact in
> quoting Romans 3:23 you're going even further in saying that the refusal to
> accept your proposal is sinful. The charge of being insulting therefore
> stands unchanged.
>
>
>
> We're all in the same boat in this respect, are we not?
> >
>
> Apparently you're not (with respect to the numerical findings) because you
> accept your findings as a miracle but all those on the list who don't are
> thereby sinful. You don't accept the possibility that you may be wrong.
>
>
> > I find the current situation admirably summed up in Britannica's
> > definition of _cognitive dissonance_: it is "The mental conflict that occurs
> > when beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information." However, I
> > do not condemn a person for that unpleasant experience because, in other
> > circumstances, I might well be a victim of the same.
> >
>
> Yes, you are. Like when I gave you the link to the Francis Collins
> article showing ample evidence for evolution. You just refused to accept it
> because it contradicted your prior beliefs.
>
> Now, a little question for you. A short while ago you countered Peter's
> > comment "Mythical Adam, literal Christ doesn't add up" with the _OK
> > button/Enter key_ metaphor. I gather, then, that you believe in a _mythical_
> > Adam. May I therefor inquire about his descendants - the Antediluvian
> > Patriarchs - listed in Genesis 5. Are they also, in your view, mythical?
> > And what about Adam's son, Abel, whom the Lord clearly supposed was a _real
> > person_ (Mt.23:35, Lk.11:51)? Was the Lord misguided in his belief?
> >
>
> That's a difficult question to answer because we don't know. Christ may
> have been referring to these people figuratively, just as I might talk about
> what happened to Frodo, or Alice in Wonderland, or Christopher Robin as if
> they were real people, which doesn't imply that I actually believe they were
> real.
>
> I do not know about the historicity of Adam and the antedeluvian
> patriarchs. I think the most likely explanation is that they may well have
> been real historical characters, about which little was known, but to whom
> legends became attached, and acquired important meanings for us.
>
> My point about the OK button (metaphor) and the Enter key (literal) is
> that even everyday language has different levels of meaning, and can't
> necessarily be taken literally. Like when you say "my feet are killing me"
> do you mean it literally? Or "I've 101 things to do today". Or even "I'm
> starving - my stomach thinks my throat's cut".
>
> Iain
>
>
> Vernon
> >
> > www.whatabeginning.com
> >
> > www.otherbiblecode.com
> >
> > PS My eyes are no longer what they were, so for all further
> > communication I would appreciate your using a larger font.
> >
> > V
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Iain Strachan <igd.strachan@gmail.com>
> > *To:* Vernon Jenkins <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>
> > *Cc:* asa@calvin.edu
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 14, 2007 9:39 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [asa] The Message
> >
> > Dear Vernon,
> >
> > In a previous post you asked:
> >
> > Thanks for these observations, Iain. However, you keep referring to
> > my associating the non-acceptance of my findings with some acute form of
> > 'wickedness' in the person concerned. I don't believe I've ever suggested
> > that; it is most certainly completely foreign to my thinking. Possibly you
> > have in mind something that I've expressed badly somewhere along the line?
> >
> > Well right here in your new web page is the kind of thing I meant:
> >
> > You wrote in "The Anatomy of a Miracle":
> >
> >
> > - *That there is a potentially fatal flaw in man's mental
> > faculties!*
> >
> > It manifests itself here as an immediate and adverse reaction to
> > objective evidence that glorifies God, and is not detectable by the normal
> > investigative techniques of psychology; invariably, its effect is to cause
> > mankind to construct and live in a world of make-believe; to suppress
> > questions relating to the deepest issues of life; and, at any price, to
> > avoid facing up to the truth concerning the 'How?' and the 'Why?' of
> > existence.
> >
> >
> > In other words, (or so it seems to me) you seem to be saying that anyone
> > who doesn't accept your claim of a "standing miracle" is mentally defective,
> > and those of us trying to do objective science are living in a world of
> > make-believe. I do think that most people on this list who read that
> > paragraph are going to find it pretty insulting. You've got to accept that
> > the reason people question your findings is because they are scientists &
> > that's what scientists do, and you have to be prepared to respond to
> > criticisms and questions rather than just make out that anyone who can't see
> > it as a miracle must have a mental deficiency.
> >
> >
> > Iain
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/14/07, Vernon Jenkins <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Forum,
> > >
> > > There is the suggestion in some quarters that while the 'standing
> > > miracle' of Genesis 1:1 may well be accepted as a communication from our
> > > Creator - specifically intended to target this generation - its content is
> > > indeterminate. My own view is that the information delivered is clear
> > > enough - as I explain in "The Message of the Miracle" - http://www.whatabeginning.com/anatomy.htm
> > >
> > >
> > > Vernon
> > > www.whatabeginning.com
> > > www.otherbiblecode.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -----------
> > After the game, the King and the pawn go back in the same box.
> >
> > - Italian Proverb
> > -----------
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> -----------
> After the game, the King and the pawn go back in the same box.
>
> - Italian Proverb
> -----------
>
>

-- 
-----------
After the game, the King and the pawn go back in the same box.
- Italian Proverb
-----------
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Received on Fri Aug 17 03:01:22 2007

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