Re: [asa] Designed Kangaroos?

From: Jim Armstrong <>
Date: Wed Aug 08 2007 - 20:13:58 EDT

It strikes me that this line of thinking is rather analogous to the ID
logic founded (at least in part) on improbability of some observed
It would appear that the attributes that Vernon observes are indeed a
very unlikely outcome of natural processes (though still not zero
If that is postulated, then the choice between Human Design and
Supernatural Design seems to require a more thoughtful assessment of
probabilities (or improbabilities), whether formal or intuitive.
Vernon is able to declare this a non-contest via his particular choice
of anchorage. Others view the choice of alternatives as an open question
in the absence of specific evidence.
Vernon contests this openness because of the way he is informed by
Scripture. But at the end of the day, this would seem to be either
circular reasoning, or else default to the improbability logic of ID
(with its attendant problems/criticisms).

Or so it seemeth to me....
JimA [Friend of ASA]

Iain Strachan wrote:

> With reference to your two points:
> (1) while we may not agree on their _purpose_, the observed
> phenomena constitute clear and objective evidence of _supernatural
> activity_ do they not?
> I think when you put it like that it puts people off. Putting it like
> that leaves people no way to disagree - and when they do you tell them
> that it's because they are sinful. That's the problem with your
> entire approach, and why you have made no progress with getting people
> to take these findings seriously. As I've said in the past, there
> seem to be three alternatives:
> (1) Pure coincidence.
> (2) Human design.
> (3) Supernatural design.
> Having looked at cases in music where composers have used number
> symbolism (sometimes openly admitting it), it has always been clear to
> me that the patterns in Genesis 1:1 that you found are far more
> detailed and impressive than anything I've seen in music (for which
> there is little dispute that it's human design). Hence (1) seems
> ruled out - the observed pattern indicates strongly deliberate intent.
> (2) would not stack up with my experience of other humans writing to
> "numerical constraints", which invariably leads to twisted and
> contorted syntax, often with little meaning or literary merit, apart
> from the author's ingenuity in getting the text to obey numerical
> constraints. Note that it's much harder to do this with text (getting
> the numeric values to add up to a specified value) than it would be
> for music (contriving the bar/note counts to make a particular
> total). Music can be "shaped" without destroying the meaning, in a
> way that text can't be.
> This seems to leave (3) as the most likely possibility. However, I
> think rather than ramming it down peoples throats that "this is a
> clear miracle and if you can't see it then it's because you are
> wicked", it would be better (and more humble) to invite people to see
> if they can come up with a more plausible explanation.
> and
> (2) Dave (Wallace) appears to think I am engaged in some form of
> Gnosticism. Would that now be your own view?
> No, it wouldn't be my own view. However, it's easy to see why this
> might be viewed as such. The following sentence from the Wikipedia
> article on Gnosticism shows why:
> In order to free oneself from the inferior material world, one needs
> gnosis <>, or esoteric
> <> spiritual knowledge available
> only to a learned elite.
> As I've explained, probably 99.9% of people aren't able to comprehend
> the significance of the numerical patterns you discovered. So this
> knowledge is indeed only available to a small "elite" group of
> people. For most people the properties of numbers don't matter. When
> Dick Fischer boasted of his 163 missions over Vietnam, the first thing
> that struck me was that 163 is a prime number. But then I'm a
> peculiar person in that respect. Most people wouldn't even think
> about that sort of thing. Likewise in my last job, my office phone
> number was a perfect square. But for most people it's just a phone
> number.
> It is of note that the "Matrix" trilogy of films was influenced
> stongly by ideas from Gnostic Christianity, and these films are full
> of hidden, esoteric messages, and number symbolism etc etc that most
> people miss the first time round till some fan on a fan website points
> it out. For example, in the first film, there is a central character
> called Neo, who is a clear analogue of Christ. It's been noted that
> Neo is an anagram of One, as in "The chosen One". In one of the
> scenes in the film, a nameplate on a space ship shows at the bottom
> "Mark 11 number 3" as a serial number. The scene shows Neo staring
> directly at it. If you look up Mark 11:3 you will see it says "You
> are the Son of God". Thus this "hidden message", disguised as a
> serial number on a nameplate, underscores the intent of the authors of
> the film in making Neo a Christ analogue. It might well be argued
> that your patterns are also "hidden messages", and hence some "special
> knowledge".
> Hope this clarifies somewhat.
> Iain
> With every good wish,
> Vernon
> <>
> <>
> --
> -----------
> After the game, the King and the pawn go back in the same box.
> - Italian Proverb
> -----------

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Received on Wed Aug 8 20:14:07 2007

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