RE: [asa] Designed Kangaroos?

From: Peter Loose <>
Date: Thu Aug 02 2007 - 08:11:24 EDT

Hello Michael:
I do understand what you're saying - but it reads to me like just another
opinion and isn't dealing with the focus I've sought to bring from a
consideration of the Biblical text. I've asked some specific questions about
the parallelism between Adam and the Lord Jesus Christ as exemplified by the
Apostle Paul's treatment of that. All that you say I am well aware of and
have heard often. As you'd expect, I find it evidentially unconvincing.
While I agree with much of your general thesis that the Bible is neither
literal nor figurative but a varying mixture of both, with respect Michael
that's not the matter in hand. The matter in hand is simply what Paul says
about Adam and Christ. What has to be shown for your thesis to have weight
is that on the specific question of Adam and Christ, a figurative
understanding is what the Apostle has in mind. This requires IMO an
evidential response not a blanket assertion to the contrary.
I'm hoping for something Biblical that illuminates my question!

Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 12:49 PM
To: Peter Loose; 'Iain Strachan'
Subject: Re: [asa] Designed Kangaroos?
You so over-polarise figurative vs literal that you do not allow any other
position. Yours is a good debating tactic to the uninformed - either A or B
but you ignore the possibility that Genesis may not be a totally literal
narrative which means your simple either/or is invalid.
In fact the whole of the bible is neither literal nor figurative but a
varying mixture of both. even the Gospels are not literal accounts.
As literal historical is meaningless, so is a literal historical Fall. That
does not mean that there has not been a Fall and that we are not fallen.
Further early Genesis does not state that animals did not die before humans
appear.Too much reading into the Bible of notions like an alleged curse
affecting all of creation with suffering sickness and death coming to the
animals is just not justified.
Lastly I believe in the fall but not the curse as the latter is not
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Loose <>
To: 'Iain <> Strachan'
Cc: ; 'Michael Roberts'
<> ;
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:28 PM
Subject: RE: [asa] Designed Kangaroos?
Actually Iain, I did not mean what you appear to think I mean. I apologise
for not being clear in the first place.
If you read again what I said, it was your "stance in respect of bad things
being literally due to." that is cause for sadness on my part. That's why I
went on and raised the perspective from Paul in I Corinthians - 'as in Adam
all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive'.
This is what I said Sat 28/07/2007 10:54
A challenge to the figurative interpretation of the origin of 'bad things'
would be the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor. 15:22 (NIV) "For as in Adam all die, so
in Christ all will be made alive."
Would those who adopt a figurative interpretation of Genesis 3 in respect of
the cause of bad things, please explain why Paul didn't take that same view
- apparently? Do they propose a mythical Adam and a literal Christ? Or are
they proposing that 'all will be made alive' is also figurative? Figurative
of what may I ask?
You are free of course to reject your YEC friend's view of The Fall. But in
so doing you raise absolutely huge questions about the entire record of
redemption. Are you seriously suggesting that one can have a mythical Adam
and a literal Christ? The parallelism fails. I think this Genesis 3 'myth'
or 'figurative' interpretation needs some careful discussion and explaining.
Indeed, I find it impossible to understand the flow of reasoning in 1
Corinthians 15 in any other way than demands a literal historical Fall as
recorded in Genesis 3. A further sample of that account in 1 Cor. 15:21
(NIV) "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead
comes also through a man." is in harmony with 15:22.
Do we understand something in this matter that Paul didn't?


From: []
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:35 PM
To: Iain Strachan
Cc: Peter Loose; Michael Roberts;
Subject: Re: [asa] Designed Kangaroos?
But Iain, though I agree with you on the need for a broader hermeneutical
perspective, and though I agree with you that it's too pat and simple to
attribute carnivorous animals and such to a recent historical fall, I'm
really struggling with the way in which, it seems to me, you're dismissing a
central narrative of the Christian faith. The picture scripture gives us of
human rebellion against God is, in fact, the picture of a man and woman
eating fruit God told them not to eat. And scripture does, in fact, suggest
that this somehow messes up everything. It seems to me that we need to
appropriate this picture and interpret it in the context of what we know
about the physical world, but not to dismiss it.
On 8/1/07, Iain Strachan <> wrote:
On 7/28/07, Peter Loose < > wrote:
Iain and Friends:
I find this stance in respect of 'bad things being literally due to one
historical woman and her husband eating a piece of fruit' to be very sad.

Sorry, but that is exactly what my YEC friends tell me. That the fall is a
literal historical event, tied precisely to Adam and Eve eating the fruit,
literally on a given day. As direct result of this God put the curse on the
whole of creation, and from thenceforth all the bad things happened.
"Carnivory" started up (I've even seen articles on this on the AiG website),
animals started eating each other.

The logical extension to this is that to answer Michael's pointed question
as to why God "designed" the Ebola virus is that Adam's specific act of
disobedience in eating the forbidden fruit was the direct reason that God
made this happen.

My creationist friends tell me that the whole Gospel falls apart if you
don't accept this.

I agree - the whole stance is very sad indeed, and I feel honour bound as a
Christian to continue to point out its absurdity - an absurdity that keeps
people away from Christianity because most people think you must be a nutter
to believe such things.

As I have said elsewhere, we must think about what the Fall narrative
_means_ rather than being stuck on whether it happened literally as
described. (Man+woman+fruit).


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Received on Thu Aug 2 08:12:51 2007

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